code_geass | Two cents

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Two cents

First off, I like this anime because it involves war, political intrigue, friendship, and betrayal. Then I was miffed at the stereotypical characters--bad protagonist, heroic antagonist/best friend/greatest enemy, sexy and mysterious girl with mystical powers, helpless sister, megalomaniac king.

And then, as other LJ people have mentioned, they're not stereotypical after all. They're not completely good/bad people...most of them anyway.

There were two things I hated: (1) the Pizza Hut product placement, but this has already been beaten and murdered in other posts so I won't do it, and (2) the god-awful deus ex machina.

There were plenty of deus ex machina in Code Geass (read: V.V.), but what annoyed me most was when Euphie dropped out of nowhere and into Suzaku's arms. Somebody explain to me why a princess would drop out of nowhere? Ah, *forehead smack* convenient plot device...of course.

Many people don't like Euphie because she's a Lacus clone. I initially agree. But when she became a killing doll, I liked it. She became one of Lelouch's many accidental pawns in that last-8-minute chess game of his. This confirms Euphie's purpose in the series: convenient momental plot device.

Now Nina. Everyone is creeped out. But I like it that there's a one-sided-stalker-worship-dirty-love going on with Nina. She never really had anyone care for her before, and here comes this radiant glowing princess that values Nina's life so much that she's willing to exchange her life for hers. Nina is so awestruck because no one ever does this for her before that she entrusts her never-ending and never-wavering loyalty and devotion to her. Someone actually treasured her, in Nina's view. So the girl who was never appreciated before becomes obssessed with the radiant princess because she's afraid no one would appreciate her life again. I kinda understand it.

Suzaku. Agree with the initial Kira-clone impression. Agree with the later omg-he's-actually-two-dimensional-because-of-that-patricide impression. I truly appreciate characters who are not one-dimensional. I don't like perfect characters. I like it that he's a contradictory character. I like it that he's trying to convince himself of doing the right thing, justifying himself of his father's murder. He's haunted by all the bad things he did, but he still weaves the illusion onto himself that "this is for the good". He has a mask, just like Lelouch's Zero, but Suzaku's mask is harder to remove as it's from childhood. I agree that he keeps repressing all that emotion. Once, he managed to let a bit out in front of Lelouch, but that's just a bit. His guilt is slowly eating him and he doesn't notice it. Euphie was, once again--convenient plot device--, the trigger to release all that pent-up emotion since childhood. He doesn't care anymore. He doesn't care that Nunnally is in danger. He doesn't care that Japan is in complete chaos. He doesn't care that Lelouch is his best friend. He doesn't care. All he cares about is killing this guy, riddle him with bullets and make sure he's DEAD.

I haven't read Suzaku of the Counterattack, you see.
A favor? Would anyone mind doing a character sketch of Suzaku? I really want to understand him more.

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At least in my subs of Picture Drama 23.95, Suzaku says, "I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. I know. I knew full well." If this isn't premeditation, I don't know what is. I would believe that Suzaku wanted his father to come over to his side, but I don't think that one can argue that he had purposefully steeled himself to kill his father...if necessary. It certainly is not a decision made in the heat of the moment.

I sorta oppose calling his killing of his father a "mistake". I mean, yes, it was murder, and yes, it weighs heavily on his conscience. I think that the powers of hindsight will make his action a vital one in ensuring that Japan has the strength to fight back and win its independence. As Lelouch said, if Suzaku hadn't killed his father, the nation would have exhausted itself and permanently lost its ability to rise up. As it stands, the nation is unbroken--its people are spirited and indignant, and its military-industrial complex is unscathed. This is not to say that Genbu's murder was justified, though. I'm simply saying that nothing in this series is particularly "wrong". Everything is a shade of gray, and eventuality simply lurches from one event to the next. Maybe Japan will even (eventually) come to recognize how Genbu's death preserved them.

As for his and Euphie's relationship, I wouldn't exactly call it motherly love. However, it is a very, very pure love. Hell, I see more lust in his relationship with Lelouch than in his relationship with Euphie. Their love for each other is the very epitome of a knight-champion and his lady. And of course, this highly romanticized relationship could not survive the reality of the present circumstances. I don't think that Suzaku could have effected real change from within (at least, not within a reasonable time). Prior to Zero, he was one deluded, suicidal man with no opportunity for advancement. He may envision himself a martyr, but a martyr who goes out unknown is nothing but a statistic.

Suzaku sincerely does care about Japan.

IAWTC x10000. Many people think that he snapped and wants to destroy Zero and Japan and that's that. I would disagree with them. He's a guy with good intentions trapped by an overwhelming sense of guilt and no way to change his present circumstances. Ultimately, I think he's a good guy, and no matter how misguided his actions are, and no matter how selfishly he's putting on the "good guy" facade, there is a proud Japanese deep within his heart. I have no doubt that he is Japanese and that he would fight for Japan--whatever that means to him.

As for me, I'm eagerly awaiting him to bust out again in a fit of passion/rage/indignation, "Kururugi Suzaku is a son of Japan! I'll help the ones I want to help and do the things I want to do! Why should I need a reason to do any of those!?" (Sound episode 2, track 4) (http://galvea.livejournal.com/944.html#cutid1)

I saw the translation as "What you (e.g. Lelouch) wanted to do was kill your father. And it may be a mistake after all. . . I understand. Only I can understand." Which changes the meaning quite a bit. For one, it takes away the premeditative element—Suzaku understands that it was a mistake now, but didn't necessarily when he committed the act. Personally, I see his reaction—the extreme depression and self-hatred, that is—of being a sign that he did not plan the murder. He's always been an impulsive person, and he always will be; I see it more as a ten-year old's thought process that "if Father is dead, the war will stop. . . and no one else will die." The fact that it turned out so very differently than what he expected added to the guilt. The "only I can understand" is paralleling is later behavior where he has to stick to solid ideals and follow them or he risks losing himself completely. However, the alternate translation also reinforces that Lelouch represents a number of things that Suzaku hates in himself. The blind, selfish desire for violence especially. Hence the attempt to off Lelouch later on: eliminating those elements which he seeks to destroy in himself.

However, I admit have next to no knowledge of Japanese! So I can't say which translation is more accurate, and I'm curious. DISCLAIMER I am also half conscious. Sense not make.

Ohhhh really good points! *___*

I admit myself to not know an inkling of Japanese! I was rather befuddled by this Picture Drama, as it confused me regarding the chronology of Genbu's murder. If some Japanese speaker can come clarify this for us, it'd be much appreciated!

And I agree that if your subs are more accurate, it does take away the premeditative element, and I would agree wholly with your assessment of the situation.

I thiiiink it goes Sound File 0.543/the very beginning of episode one --> that flashback in episode 16 with the dead bodies --> the murder --> the last Picture Drama. But it is kind of unclear.

♥!

I love my picture CDs when my hard drive died and the torrents no longer are working. If anyone wants to give them to me I have a few friends who are fluent in Japanese who I could possibly beg a translation out of.

Uho! If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to upload.

Thanks! That should be lost, I can't type >>; My hard drive died and I lost like 9 months of data ;;_;;

I'm going to ask my friend who is fluent and is not a Geass a fan so she won't have any biases towards the characters/perspectives.

I do agree with you, I think the amount of guilt Suzaku is carrying around makes me think it is something he regrets immensely.

Lelouch has no problem telling people he murdered Clovis and shows no guilt.

[pat] This at least is easy to fix! d-defeat I accept thee, my upload would take too long. And excellent!

Mm! Although I do wonder why he was carrying around a knife in the first place. Unless that was just how he ~rolled~ in those days: which is possible, considering the dangers of being the Prime Minister's son.

Hummmm. Lelouch guilts in his own way—he vomits at the thought of the murder—but unlike Suzaku, he doesn't feel the need to deny the murder. It happened, he can't change it, and it's very real. More than that, it's a sign of the influence he was beginning to gain as a leader. Less with Clovis's death and more with Euphie's death, he purposely hides his guilt in public in order to achieve the more impersonal, ruthless persona that he requires to continue leading the rebellion and living as Zero. Same with inciting Suzaku in the cave during the finale by talking to him about Euphie: assuming an impersonal stance to distance himself from others. Whereas in private during episode 23, Lelouch is visibly extremely guilty about what occurred with Euphie and cries. To him, strength is not letting anything else influence him, keeping everything at arm's length and holding nothing so precious that it could harm him more deeply than he wishes to show. It's the same concept as Suzaku;s search for atonement through trying to become what he feels is a good person and eliminating that which he feels is wrong in himself. So one suppresses selflessness, one suppresses selfishness.

. . . I love the boys. I really do. ♥

Same with inciting Suzaku in the cave during the finale by talking to him about Euphie: assuming an impersonal stance to distance himself from others.

YES! ;_; dsgjvsdf I love you.

MY NOT-SO-INNER DORK, IS IT SHOWING YET

(♥)

Well, no I lost 9 months of digital pictures I took ;;_;; Getting back the anime stuff hasn't been so bad though, I just sometimes need to ask for upload.

I always thought the knife was some sort of family heirloom/display piece he grabbed off a table after Genbu sent him flying. ^^;; Though I admit now after watching the picture drama I wonder how true the version of events from Stage 0 are since the Lelouch and Nunnally bits with the Ashfords are the same o_O (in which case Suzaku did mean to commit patricide but it was to save Lelouch and Nunnally)

I think Lelouch is extremely guilty about Euphie, I think he hated having to kill her, much like I think he would hate to have to kill Suzaku. I mean it's very telling that when he was on his bring down Britannia rampage in 24, he set up Suzaku to get caught in a trap where he would be taken prisoner, rather than even considering killing him outright. But I guess I don't really see guilt over Clovis tearing him up. To me, Lelouch sort of has two groups of people in his mind, those that matter to him and uhh those who don't. Losing those who don't or even killing them himself is something he is prepared to do, hurting those in the other kills him on the inside.

Personally, whether he meant to do it or not, the picture drama just further cements to me the guilt Suzaku feels. The very fact it is implied Suzaku felt at 10 there he had no chance for happiness and redemption, wow it's just painful.

Edited 2008-01-31 21:45 (UTC)

Ahhhh, I did mean getting the Picture Book. XD; But good luck!

Going between the various canon shoot-offs makes my head spin, since none of them seem to have a unified idea of What Actually Happened with the murder. Kind of works to heighten the mystery behind it, really, but it's still exhausting at times.

Mmm, you're right there. There are a handful of people that Lelouch will protect with his life, and those who he could care less about sacrificing. But Clovis, while certainly not his closest sibling, is still family and does represent that initial "I'm not going to show that I feel the least bit bad about this" with his statement that he's still "too weak" to handle it. And it foreshadows how he brings back that mentality for a much more traumatizing scenario—namely, Euphie's massacre.

I-I agree. It seems like he spent seven years regretting it without anyone to turn to, at least that we know of. It's no wonder that he ended up as wracked with guilt as he is now. Not to mention he's said outright that he hates himself and that he knows that he's locked himself in an endless, often hypocritical struggle for redemption. I see it as he's so terrified of doing the wrong thing again that he doesn't want to do anything that could be ambiguous. Which accounts for his very black and white view of What is Right and What is Wrong. Simple, but stable. . . or, at least it seemed that way to him.

Heheheh thanks XD;

I sent my friend a copy of the picture book so hopefully she gives me an answer soon.

Yeah there are a lot of different takes on canon which is why I am never sure are the picture books canon, is it just the anime? what about Stage 0?

I think in the end the only definite is Suzaku is completely wracked with guilt over what happened. I really don't think he is O.K. with what he did and I find it hard when he is so guilt wracked to really see him thinking it was the right thing to do. He's most certainly not gotten past it and really after seeing the picture CD it's hard for me to imagine it's "easier" on him when afterwards he has no where to go and believes he is no longer able/deserving of happiness. It's heartbreaking really. Someone needs to shove chocolate chip cookies in his mouth

One thing I have been thinking about is that despite the RAGE he has in 25 judging from the fact he's just holding his gun and not shooting for so long and let's face it, the fact Lelouch survived for Season 2, Suzaku obviously ~~loves~~ cares about him too much to kill him even when he feels completely betrayed and responsible for the mess Lelouch has created. Though one could also argue the same for Lelouch since while he could kill Euphie, though again one could argue that was a mercy killing, he can't kill Suzaku.

Hmmmm I guess it is telling that as far as we know he didn't actually kill Cornelia, possibly because he felt a little tinge of guilt from all the fratricide he's already committed. I do seriously think the guilt of killing Euphie is going to tear him up in Season 2 and is not something he can just walk away from in the same way that killing Clovis or Darlington or those Japanese rebels was. I just remember when Ougi talked about how Zero didn't just see everyone as chess pieces, I wanted to pat him on the head since I do think that is all Lelouch sees them as. I would argue the majority are people Lelouch puts in the expendable category, while I think for Suzaku, the only person he puts in that category is himself.

I'm actually really curious to see what went down in the cave, since the trailer was definitely putting an emphasis on its consequences for the situation a year later. I do think that Suzaku could have killed Lelouch right then and there (and the directors have said as much), but that he would probably feel the regret set in with the same immediacy as with his father's death. And most likely with much, much more intensity considering that it would have been his second murder in blind rage/impulse. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned the gun on himself not long afterwards. The only thing that could hurt more than murdering your own family is to hurt someone that you chose to be close to and believe—namely, a friend.

Also, if Suzaku doesn't need cookies, I don't know who does. . . . actually, scratch that, the entire cast could use a batch.

OK to make sure you get to see it too!
My friend got back in touch with me and said that she understands it as follows:
Suzaku says: "I didn't have any words to say in response to your vow. What you are trying to do is patricide. It's probably the wrong answer. [Not clear if he means "Patricide is the wrong answer to your problems" or "It would be the wrong answer to your vow to point out that you're trying to commit patricide."]
And then he says "I know. I was the only one who could know."

Whee, ambiguity!

My friend is bilingual so I admit I'm more willing to go with her translation than either of the fansubs. ^^;

I am really curious about Season 2 though I am trying to stay mostly spoiler free lol If I could afford it, I would so try to go to the premier in March *___*

But yeah, considering Suzaku is in the military he easily could have killed Lelouch, particularly since he had his gun out long before Lelouch raised his. But if he knows Lelouch survived, that would certainly give Suzaku huges amounts of guilt. I'm sort of wondering if Suzaku didn't pass out like the last time on the island.

I admit I think Suzaku needs cookies more than anyone else, then Lelouch and then poor Cornelia lol

Edited 2008-02-01 00:54 (UTC)

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

kadekmoment.livejournal.com - 2008-02-01 02:59 (UTC) - Expand

I agree 100%.

This sorta goes back to the discussion of whether or not Suzaku is a hypocrite. It's easy for us to label him as such, but if we try to put ourselves in his shoes, it's not hard to see how he ended up taking the path he took between ages 10 and 17. He simply wanted to preserve himself somehow--hold onto some semblance of his worth as a decent human being, even if he doesn't place much value on his life himself. We can say "man up and face it", but it's not as easy as that. Anyone who has taken any abnormal psychology or mental health class can tell you as much. And I think we can all agree that the boy has a few screws up in his head loose.

Basically, I think to call him little more than a hypocrite slaps mental health patients across the face. "Why can't you just be happy? Why can't you just will yourself to change?" No. Doesn't work like that. And given the little emotional support that he has received between the ages of 10 and 17, I'm not surprised that he has shown no improvement.

In our idealized anime worlds, I think we're all a bit too affected by the standard shounen I-can-do-anything-so-long-as-I-put-my-heart-to-it archetype. And we may be disappointed when we see a weak character, although humans are pretty darn weak. We're fragile and emotional, and we don't recover from our hurts in the span of one or two episodes.

I agree with this so much. For all the occasional moments of excessive!drama and silliness, what Geass does take seriously is the psychology of damaged human beings. Lelouch and Suzaku both want to avoid constantly facing the things that hurt them, so they opt for two different routes: the first pretending that there's nothing to hurt, the latter pretending that he can somehow erase the hurt as long as he can rationalize his behavior. And you're right, they are weak: they can't do it, try as they might. The black prince isn't so dark after all, and the white knight is more stained than he appears. And of course, it just gets harder to face reality the longer the pretending goes on: lies become far too comfortable.

I know that it was that realism that drew me into Geass in the first place. ♥ Besides the promise of pretty CLAMP!designs and product placement.

Thank you, and see that is what I am really arguing against, he's not a hypocrite, he's just someone trying to be functional.

After watching the picture drama it is completely clear that Suzaku has no support network at all once Lelouch and Nunnally move into the Ashford and I seriously doubt the Britannian army/whoever was watching Suzaku from 10-17 either really cared about him or his mental health. I think it's also easy to forget he was 10 when he committed the murder and he is 17 now. One thing I really like about Geass is for the most part the characters act more age appropriate as well.

Anyway, my friend got back in touch with me and said that she understands it as follows:
Suzaku says: "I didn't have any words to say in response to your vow. What you are trying to do is patricide. It's probably the wrong answer. [Not clear if he means "Patricide is the wrong answer to your problems" or "It would be the wrong answer to your vow to point out that you're trying to commit patricide."]
And then he says "I know. I was the only one who could know."

Whee, ambiguity!

My friend is completely bilingual.

So there we have it, its still unclear whether it was premeditated but its definitely clear that Suzaku does not feel he made the right choices.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com - 2008-02-01 01:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

rkold.livejournal.com - 2008-02-01 02:01 (UTC) - Expand

It's uploading right now. Give me *checks* 8.5 minutes. :D

Thanks! That should be lost I can't type. My hard drive died and I lost like 9 months of data ;;_;; It's been a most unfun situation.

I'm going to ask my friend who is fluent and is not a Geass a fan so she won't have any biases towards the characters/perspectives.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KS7WQJCV

Tell me if it doesn't work. It should work.

Got it and emailed my friend to ask her to translate it.

Will let you know once I get a response back! :D

And HELL YES I want another patriotic outburst in S2 too. ♥ Totally agreed there.

I've not actually been following all the Drama CDs because I'm never sure how much of them is canon and how much is not since there is already that one version where Suzaku murders his father because he thinks his father plans to murder Lelouch and Nunnally. So for now, I am just going by the anime itself.

However even if a 17 year old Suzaku canonically looking back thinks he went into the argument contemplating patricide, he was still 10 at the time and I just don't feel like a 10 year old has the mental faculties to think through this choice.

I do agree that everything is shades of gray, but I think it is obvious from the amount of guilt he feels that Suzaku does not really think this was the right choice.

I see the love as more maternal because of her last request for Suzaku to stay in school and from the way she demands Suzaku love her and the unconditional love she gives to him. She is in effect trying to bolster his self-esteem. It also then makes a lovely mirror and counterpoint to Marianne's death when Lelouch was a child.

What is a reasonable amount of time to effect change? I think to Suzaku if more people felt like him, then things would be more likely to change and I think he felt one person could make a difference. And yes, I think he did envision himself as a martyr and he might have been deluded, but that's not the same as being a hyprocrite.

I would argue that until Lelouch kills Euphie he is not even necessarily working to destroy Zero. I mean he does work with Zero to fight the Chinese Federation backed terrorists (it is isn't it?) in that one episode. And after Euphie's death, well I think it's really hard to blame him for wanting to destroy Zero.

I think that "good guy" facade is a part of him and I don't think it's selfish to want to be that person. To me, his selfishness is in wanting to die and not thinking about what that means to others. It's the one example of him wanting to take the easy way out to me.

To me, Japan has always been an overriding presence in his life. One dumb illustration, is Geass opens with Suzaku helping Lelouch to a lookout so they can view Mt. Fuji, the symbol of Japan. I think it doesn't just illustrate their friendship and their innocence but also the importance of Japan to Suzaku.

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