R2 Episode 5 Discussion: Knight takes Queen

[nayami.livejournal.com]

First, I am only posting this because I see the other discussion post carries a specific topic. I know that more than a few of us have been anticipating this episode since spoilers leaked, and it definitely didn't disappoint. But I really wanted to get into some issues with the boyas, as always. Also I have to take this moment to say that you really shouldn't expect to be too surprised if you're reading spoilers. I read them too, and I wish I didn't. Le sob. Blah blah be nice to characters/opinions and no mentioning spoilers. It's party time Ashford style!



I thought the episode did an amusing job of balancing Lelouch's bitchiness (knocking C.C. into the tomato bin and closing it, snarling at her for running out in the open, plotting to catch Suzaku, delivering the verbal smack-down to Villetta and continuing his mind games with Rollo) with his utter fail. I will never get tired of watching everyone outrun Lelouch. Actually, let's take a moment to examine some of that bitchiness in more detail. I was a bit irked that Lelouch went for Villetta so suddenly since it seems a bit sloppy for him. He has a good piece of information yes, but he's better off continuing to play his game, especially now that he has Rollo on his side. That said, his delivering of "Happy Birthday" was delicious. He's gambling too much on Villetta's fear that the Ougi thing will destroy her; he should know better than to underestimate Villetta.

There is also his hypocrisy about secrets. I love the disparity between his casually telling Kallen that it's all right for him to have a few secrets after she questions his not telling them about the pilot of the Vincent. It's not even that Lelouch never keeps a few secrets and not even that those secrets got the Black Knights captured in the first place. It's that in the same episode Lelouch acts utterly disappointed that Ougi would dare keep the Villetta thing a secret from him. I always knew Lelouch was a hypocrite, but now I can claim it without shame. Still, I forgive his bitchiness because he's Lulu and he's been mind-raped, lost his sister and thoroughly messed things up based on one case of very bad timing. I think he's entitled to a little bit of snappish behavior. He's also an arrogant ass at times. As long as he's not too sloppy, I'm happy.

I do whine a bit about Lelouch not being made to stand up for his actions at the Black Rebellion. Way to let your leader off the hook, lemmings. I swear Zero has maybe five competent people on his team and the rest are canon fodder. Maybe not to him but to everyone with a brain.

Slick move putting in the shot of the wall and the hatch marks that just trail off. Limit to geass or did something happen to our little Carve-tan? I know everyone is reading to go "OMG Suzaku is screwed," but keep in mind the creators say his geass is still going to nail him. I also am wary about this "limited" geass notion, as it goes against everything the creators have said. But we will see.

I do enjoy Rollo wavering between wanting to shiv Lelouch and wanting to kill Suzaku. The scene where Rollo tells him to hold the knife carefully while Suzaku does his stalking thing is so adorable. Speaking of the stalker, the way he holds authority is all new levels of hot. And as I crazy-theorized earlier, he is acting very Lelouchesque, right down to his wording at times.

I cannot believe the creators were evil enough to barrage us with more adorable chibi flashbacks before getting into the game of lies and espionage that was this episode. Some have pointed out it's quite telling that Lelouch and Suzaku never complete their statement about what they are to each other now. I do wonder if Lelouch truly thought he could fool Suzaku since he was so confident that he had Suzaku just because Suzaku came to see Lelouch. I am it was obvious why Suzaku given the seat next to him. He had to know Suzaku was checking on his memories; he saw him stalking him. Why didn't he act first? Was he just that damn cocky? I am not sure if this was more foolish trust in the friendship or what, but it seems a dangerous dangerous game for him to play. And he lost. Guess the worst enemy is most often the self, huh Lelouch? I also love that Suzaku is smarter than Villetta when it comes to Lelouch, not at all fooled by Lelouch's ruse.

Suzaku's ability to shift between his personas blows my mind. It's better than ever. The difference between Rivalz hanging off him and Gino doing the same is worlds apart. I think Suzaku's reaction around people is another result of not wanting to lose anyone, not wanting them to get close to him. But he's willing to fake at school because that is what everyone expects. And Suzaku has always been good at faking. But I do believe some of it is sincere such as his trying to reassure Milly that Lloyd is just a bizarre person. And of course, his love for Arthur, who still shows his appreciation in violent ways of cute. I will insert squeeing about KotR here, but really we need some more scenes with Anya before we can actually say anything about her. Gino really is Tamaki with a mecha. WHAT A TERRIFYING THOUGHT. Him and his love of commoners.

Ok so Nunnally. First, I am tired of seeing "Suzaku used Nunnally." Truly tired of it. And here is why. I don't think Suzaku is using Nunnally, but he is using her importance to Lelouch. I think Suzaku's goal to become Knight of One and take Japan, especially if he has someone who is sympathetic toward the Japanese on his side (similar to Euphie), has merit in his mind. I also do not believe Suzaku would hurt Nunnally. As he says, he already lost enough people. I also debate on the "important friends" line because both blogs used "friend" and Suzaku only has two people he "lost". I think the line refers to Lelouch and Euphie only. Which gets into issues of double mentality, similar to Kallen. I might elaborate on this later. But it plays back to what happened in the throne room. Note, I find Turn 1 entirely inconsistent with anything else we've seen thus far so aside from the big picture, I remove most of it from this analysis. In either case, I don't think Suzaku is out to hurt Nunnally. I think he truly wants to work with her to fix things. There's also the fact that only the Emperor can appoint Governor Generals. Suzaku might have made the suggestion, but he only has so much influence. The Emperor would have known as well. But yes, Suzaku is using the relationship to place Lelouch/Zero in check. As makes sense since he needs to stop Zero by any means possible. He doesn't believe the Japanese need Zero; they can be saved without his methods.

Also in response to people's whining about Suzaku's goals being foolish and ill-thought and liable to only be a band-aid... umm we're supporting someone who thinks he can overthrow an entire empire... and then what? Suddenly free people? What about the EU and China? What about the Britannia momeland mainland? Both players have extreme goals, and who's to say one has more likelihood than the other. Perspective as always.

About the "lost friend" line, I do believe Suzaku thinks Lelouch is beyond redemption, that Zero has destroyed him, and that it is Suzaku's fault as well for not stopping him when he could have. (There is debate on this issue, regarding Suzaku possibly using Nunnally and his words about Japan not needing Zero as a warning to Lelouch to BACK THE HELL OFF before he has to take action.) I also believe that Suzaku was prepared to let Lelouch live without his memories. Since "Zero" was effectively dead. I also note that after telling Kallen that "This is Lelouch," his words to Lelouch are "Zero, I will stop you." He only refers to him as Lelouch again when he is answering his question. Note: "I told you, Lelouch. I would change Britannia from the inside." His expression. It's almost like he's not even talking to him, he is repeating something he always told his friend. I think Suzaku has distanced the Lelouch he knew from Zero to a point. This is no longer the friend he cherished. He cannot get him back. So yes, he has lost him.

And what of his talk about having enough military power? With Nunnally in place, Zero is well and truly stuck (ehem people talking about Lelouch possibly killing Nunnally scare me because NO). Why does Suzaku need full strength? By the way, I totally laughed at him chewing out Gino for not bringing Lancelot. YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY. What is Suzaku's role in the plot to catch C.C.? What was his role in the plot to do so by killing the bait: amnesiac Lelouch? Of course, this depends heavily on whether my suggestion that Suzaku would have let amnesiac!Lelouch live is true. I also throw the possibility of the end of Turn 1 being a flash-forward into this mix since it would be the only way of retaining consistency, with Suzaku's declaration of being the one to kill Zero. One thing's for sure, Suzaku is surely the trump card that was sent after Lelouch. What does the Emperor have in mind?

I will now take this moment to laugh at the hilarious fanservice and then urge Kallen to call Lelouch on his bullshit more often. Seriously. Fight the good fight, Kallen!

Comments

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Good point! But I wonder whether the distance is enough to stop the pull to return or whether it's a back of the mind thing.

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

Suzaku's ability to shift between his personas blows my mind. It's better than ever. The difference between Rivalz hanging off him and Gino doing the same is worlds apart. I think Suzaku's reaction around people is another result of not wanting to lose anyone, not wanting them to get close to him.

I find it interesting that Suzaku is willing to be as genuine as he is around the other KOTR. He is used to faking to get by amongst Brittainians, and if he wants to be Knight of One, it would make sense for him to curry favor amongst his peers. Either he feels secure enough in his position that he doesn't give a damn, or he has an odd sort of trust in his fellow soldiers.

And what of his talk about having enough military power? With Nunnally in place, Zero is well and truly stuck (ehem people talking about Lelouch possibly killing Nunnally scare me because NO). Why does Suzaku need full strength?

Perhaps to keep Lelouch from stealing her away? If Zero kidnaps Nunnally then Suzaku loses his trump card. Suzaku's probably hoping that Zero will go after her so that he, Anya, and Gino can draw the Black Knights out and crush them for good.

[morose-doll.livejournal.com]

Ah, good analysis.

Anyhow I am tired also I people saying that Suzaku is using Nunnaly - because I do not believe that is the case. He appointed her there to stop Zero's ambition and also further push for his own plan.

Everyone remember when Suzaku said that he will change the britannian empire from the inside? Well, yeah by placing Nunnally there he can help the japanese along with Nunnally who's compassion will help.

If the japanese are treated right because of this then Lelouch is out of business.

[epicureal.livejournal.com]

The hatch marks thing really surprised me, because - and I'll probably have to go back and double-check this, but I'm pretty sure - Lelouche's instructions to Carve-tan were to make a cross every day; the last one shown is just one line. Which would suggest she stopped half-way through making the cross mark.

And I laughed at Lelouche's inability to run too XD It's so wonderfully at odds with how capable he is with just about everything else. Don't ever change, Lulu!

[lavaliere]

I think it might be something like in Death Note. The Death Note only works on a person if it's physically possible for the written details to take place. IE, a criminal in jail could be written in the book as escaping from jail, fleeing to Paris, and then dying of a heart attack on the Eiffle tower. That couldn't possibly happen, so the criminal would simply die of a heart attack where he was. In the sense of Geass, it might be the physical impossibility restraining the girl from completing her task.

This concept might even relate to how Euphie reacted to the Geass. Like Lelouch mentioned, it was practically impossible in her mind to ever do something as terrible as massacering hundreds of Japanese people, so her nature reaction was to fight the power.

[snozzlenut.livejournal.com]

AGREED!
Suzaku cares about Nunnally and I don't believe he would put her in any kind of danger or purposely hurt her for the sake of getting Zero. He probably believes she can fill the gap that Euphie left in regards to compassion towards the Japanese. Or something like that xD

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I think Suzaku is tired of faking and was only doing it for the sake of seeming like he was all right around Lelouch and the others so his tricksy self wouldn't be suspected. But you raise a good point about him wanting to remain detached but showing his true self to the KotR. He does have authority around the KotR; maybe he just feels more secure with them because he truly believes they respect him.

Actually that makes a lot of sense. He does tell the Knights he will bring everything out into the open that night. He might very well have revealed his hand so Zero would move against him. Lelouch does lose all sense when Nunnally's involved and will be spontaneous.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Right. That's why people say the geass wore off. I say it looks like she was interrupted...

His fail moments are what remind us that he's just a frail little boy beneath all his plottings and maniacal laughter. I like that.

[kuroshin.livejournal.com]

Suzaku is one of the most brilliant characters ever. His mastery of faking emotions and reactions is just astounding and scary and his utter idealism is just a very likeable conflict to his reputaion as Britannia's reaper. Im very sure that if he'll be a knight of one, he'll just use his faking.

The only thing I do not like about him is that he's using Nunnaly's importance to Lelouch. That's just pretty underhanded and im very much pro Lulu, but im sure Lulu will be able to get off the hook on this pinch.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Yay, thank you for posting. You know I'm a huge supporter of the BACK THE HELL OFF theory, but I think the authors DO intend to keep us in the dark for the time being, and that scene was meant to be ambiguous like that. We won't know exactly where Suzaku stands until the authors decide it's the right time, and I think they will play with this ambiguity until we go insane. XD

I don't think it is unlikely that Lelouch might kill Nunnally by accident. Isn't that what he does all the time? Of course, if that ever happens he will go batshit crazy, thank you very much.

Nice point about the extreme goals. The boys are more alike each other than they think. That's probably one of the reasons they managed to become friends: they were both able to dream high, and for precious amount of time, they were able to dream together. But of course, that's not only about dreams and ideals. Both boys' world views are excruciatingly tied to their own selfish needs: Lelouch needs his safety and revenge ("It's over when somebody wins"). Suzaku needs his redemption from violence, and that's probably why they will never be able to persuade each other.

I think that Lelouch was more worried about Ougi than disappointed. He didn't see it coming because as far as he is concerned, Ougi is one of his major fanboys. Also, he does get attached to people and Ougi's "friendly" way has always caused an interesting reaction in him. Of course, C.C. had to make up for his lack of hormones and explain what was going on. Also Lelouch is, and will always be a control freak and the idea that Ougi was betraying him in some way was probably not very welcomed.

About his reaction to Suzaku: I think that, unfortunately, Lelouch was still in denial about his (ex?) friend - he turned down Rolo's proposal, he thought about "capturing him". I think there is something else to it too: people have been pointing out how much Suzaku has changed. As usual, Lelouch's changes tend to be far more subtle. I think that now he does have less qualms about using people's feelings than he used to - maybe because he has suffered too much, maybe because he is lonely and desperate. He has always used people's feelings as an strategic weapon, but now he is being far more cruel about it. I think that's why he was happy when Suzaku came looking for "Lelouch". That was a feeling he could use. A connection. Of course, that was also a terrible mistake: Suzaku got there first. (I have to point out that, in his over protectiveness, Lelouch has always underestimated the people he loves a little, and Suzaku has not been an exception).

And yes, the boy has been through a lot and I also forgive him his usual recklessness. He is in a tight schedule too, because he must "save" Nunnally.

[lavaliere]

Interesting analysis. I have to agree with the idea that Suzaku doesn't want to kill Lelouch, but wants to kill Zero. He does seem to make an effort in distinguishing the two. Suzaku, being one who seeks redemption for his past crimes, wouldn't want to kill off a former friend for the sake of what's right. The murder would be to similar to the murder of his father. But if he can effectively stop Zero without harm coming to Lelouch, that would better fit his goal. He probably really thought that the Emperor's overwriting of Lelouch's memories was the best for him, even if it meant hurt Lelouch somewhat.

As for Nunnally, that bit was really quite interesting. Lelouch's reaction was predictable, however I think he might be able to divise some manner of maintaing his cover. He would simply have to hang up on Nunnally without acknowledging her, and then pretend to be angry with Suzaku for the "prank call," insisting that he only has a brother. To me, this seems like the most logical course of action, because then he wouldn't hurt Nunnally by denying her whilst she could overhear. Whether he'll take some sort of action like this, I don't know. However, I think it would be something he would do.

Suzaku choice to work with Nunnally in the way he described actually makes me curious. Is Nunnally actually the Govenor-General, or did Suzaku merely say that to mess with Lelouch? He doesn't normally seem the type to use manipulation as the means to an end, however his time spent with the Emperor and the KotR might have changed that. Or, possibly, he is so driven by hate for the death of Euphie that he is willing to step down to that level.

Anyway, good thoughts! Thanks for sharing! Here's looking forward to the next episode!

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Yes, but Euphie also succumbed to the geass and only failed around Suzaku because she was dying and her mind wasn't doing so hot. Because the geass is a more mental attack and lacks the default mode of the Death Note, I would think that the urge to return to the wall, possibly as a nagging thought, would remain even if Carve-Tan couldn't actually accomplish her task. I'm wondering if we'll see her again.

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

Exactly! He even conveniently tells Lelouch when Nunnally is supposed to arrive in Japan, so that the Black Knights can try and interrupt the transport. I definitely think he's setting Zero up.

[lulu-quality.livejournal.com]

This episode was all sorts of awesome and your analysis really encompasses the significant themes shown. On the topic of Nunnally, I believe that, while she was approved by the Emperor, she took up the position of her own volition. In SE 6, Clovis took up the original position of his own free will (he requested for it) because he wanted to remedy the area in honor of Lelouch and Nunnally *bursts into tears*. Knowing Nunnally's perceivable compassion for the people there, she could have wanted to do the same for Euphie and the Japanese. However, so little is known about her true personality/opinions, her actions could really mean anything.

[lavaliere]

Oh, I have no doubt that nagging thought would probably be there. Much like Shirley's thoughts always seemed at near surface level, despite having her memory wiped (at least, in the first season, anyway). But the physical impossibility of the task would keep her from preforming it, I think.

We might yet see Carve-Tan~ Who knows?

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Yes, the clash between Suzaku's wish to protect and his reputation as a murderer is quite interesting. But I think the difference from before and now is that Suzaku is more willing to make sacrifices to ensure that protection. Again, very Lelouchian. I am having too much fun making up Lelouch words. XD

I don't see it as underhanded. I see it as good strategy. Nunnally is safe, and her "psychotic brother" will have to be careful in pulling his next move or rush in blindly and then be defeated by the Knights. It plays ironically to Lelouch's line that sometimes "One must become evil to defeat evil." They are just flipsides of each other now, each championing their own cause. And Suzaku wants to save Japan without the chaos Zero is sure to bring.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

But Euphie failed, didn't she? And C.C. seemed to be surprised that she had been able to hesitate in the first place. I don't think the Geass works like the Death Note because it overides subjective characteristics and thus makes the individual perform the order no matter what or die trying. I think that, had that girl been moved to the homeland, she would do everything in her power to come back (steal, kill, whatever). I think she is either dead, in a comma, etc ... or the wall is still a work in progress. The pull of the Geass, it has been suggested in canon, is basically irresistible.

[vicks111.livejournal.com]

The fact that Nunally is the new governor makes me want to squeal. Does it mean the Emperor recognized her as Nunally Vi Brittania? I want to see more of the royal family, and their reactions to everything. Schneizel, especially. Makes me wonder why Cornelia went into hiding.

Part of Suzaku's deal with the Emperor must have involved safety for Nunally, so that's why I believe he is not using her. I wonder if Nunally knows Lelouch is Zero and why she didn't communicate until now. I was surprised too at Lulu using Villeta so soon, though I think that it will hinder him in the long run. I want her to see Ohgi again!! :3

As for Zero, so far he isn't in any advantage against Brittania. Though it seems he won position from rescuing the Black Knights and capturing the embassy, Brittania still has the upper hand, and as long as Nunally is with the Empire, I doubt he'll be able to do much.

As for the Chinese federation, I wonder how Xing Ke will accomplish the meeting. I keep thinking, the clamp fangirl that I am, that he is from the same Li family as Xiao Lang, just like Kaguya is Sumeragi XD
Anyone noticed Karen's new interest in him?? >:3

[lavaliere]

The point was that she tried to resist it, which was what made her different than other people Lulu had Geass'ed. Perhaps it was because of Lulu's Geass being disrupted by V.V.'s trap or perhaps it was because of Euphie's strong will, but she was one of the only to resist the power. I liken her strong will to the workings of the Death Note, because the task of killing innocent people was practically impossible to Euphie, which might have been the reason for her resisitance. That she failed in the end doesn't much matter (though, I would point out that she does overcome the Geass at the end of her life, because she does not want to kill the guy she loves: Suzaku).

And should the girl have died/be in a coma/etc because of her attempt to do her job, I think that would actually be more of a reason for the Geass and the Death Note to be similar.

Finally, I think it should be mentioned that Euphie died while trying to kill all the Japanese. Even if Lelouch hadn't shot her, she would never have been physically able to kill all the Japanese. Eventually, she would probably have been stopped by someone else, and then died trying to escape. At least, in my mind anyway...

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Haha yes, it was your pet theory I was referring to. And you know they will torture us for as long as they can.

Accidental death I can buy. But some are talking about deliberately killing her to take Japan, and that made me cry.

I find it very interesting you refer to one of Lelouch's goals as safety, especially bringing up that line. I always thought it was more along the lines of protection, but safety makes a lot of sense.

Mm, I think disappointed was the wrong word. But yes, I did get a sense of worry in there as well since Ougi is supposed to be smarter than that. But his reaction was still so damn ironic.

Yes, I do think Lelouch was planning on using Suzaku's feelings, but I am still very surprised that he misjudged them so very wrong. You made another interesting point about Lelouch underestimating those he cared about. I just can't believe he would do it AGAIN. He's already by caught by Suzaku's inside knowledge once before. You'd think he'd be more prepared for it. I do want to go more into his stopping Rollo from killing Suzaku, but I don't want to get shot down by canon.

[meijioro.livejournal.com]

When Suzaku told Lelouch about his plan to become the Knight of One, it seemed as if Lelouch was really surprised as if he was thinking, "Why the hell didn't I think of this?"

[neko-astrid.livejournal.com]

I have nothing but pure unadulterated hate for the back stanning son of a bitch, he's even going as far as to use nunnaly against LuLu. thats just plain evil, the poor girl is blind and crippled! WTF!. I hope he gets it in the end. the last scene made me scream BASATRD!! lol had my mom running into the room all narrow eyed lmao. LuLu has so got to make a comeback, all the shit from last season is coming back to bite him in the ass. C.C. has got to stop running around like she blends in anywhere. you really can't help but look at a girl with BRIGHT FLORESCENT GREEN HAIR!. the CF general has got me stumped, i'm still not sure what to think of him. on an ending note WTF is suzaku thinking, the bastard only thinks one step again ( become knight of one pick japan as mine blah blah blah) does the baka even undestand that even if he's able to do that the damn country will still be under britanian rule. DUMB ASS! the japanese will still be in poverty, not to mention does he think that if he pulls it off they will just welcome him back with open arms? WTF! the reason they like zero is because he's actully FIGHTING britania, not kisssing high noble asses. This whole episode did nothing but make me laugh and piss me off.

Ja ne!

[zerorevenge.livejournal.com]

What's this? Support for Suzaku? And Logically explained!?

Love You.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Aaaaah, but please remember Britannia's extremely hierarchical structure and pseudo darwinism. Maybe Suzaku is not "being himself" at all, maybe he is showing them who is the BOSS there. Just remember Cornelia and Schneizel's talk about dogs and people who are supposed to obey, Lelouch's criticism of Britannian's nobles who decide who will lead and who will grovel, and of course, Charles'speech. Suzaku, by acting the way he acts around the KotR, and Rollo, and Villetta, is being a model Britannian noble. Suzaku is very much your social camalleon, and we should never underestimate his will to comply to people's expectations.

On the other hand, proud, powerful Suzaku reminds me a little of chibi Suzaku, but way colder. He does know how to act around those people and he might enjoy it. He is arrogant enough to enjoy it, I think. Again, I was reminded that Suzaku is the Kururugi's heir. Authority is something he is familiar with and might have missed.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

*claps*

Yay for short, somewhat coherent replies. xD I did read all of this thing, really! ;_____;