code_geass | Episode 19 discussion?

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Episode 19 discussion?

Since the last episode discussion post went so well, I figured why not give it another go-around? My original plan was to post these on Saturdays so people had a good day to check out the raw and track down summaries and the like but since I enjoy the discussions myself and won't be around much Saturday, this one comes a bit early.

I'd also like to point out that I am extremely biased in what I talk about to start the discussion so if you have characters/topics you're more interested in, feel free to thread about them as well.

I knew the island arc would be entertaining, but I was hardly expecting it to be good. I love that Euphemia knew who Zero was the entire time but never told Cornelia because she didn't want to cause her sister any more pain by knowing it was their own brother fighting against them. I love Euphemia in general now. The scene where Lelouch and Suzaku are facing off and Kallen's basically calling Euphemia a vapid princess just before Euphemia tells Suzaku to forget about her and kick Kallen's ass, that was the first sign of Euphemia's edge that I've ever seen. I liked it. Not as much as Lelouch totally failing at survival life, unable to even dig a hole. Why were you born a man, Lulu? It was hilarious of the writers to continuously compare Lelouch's failures with Suzaku's leet fishing skills.

Though I agree with the anime bloggers that the Euphie/Lulu parts were hella better than Suza/Kallen. Suzaku and Kallen were just a world of bitchery, while Euphemia and Lelouch had connection and understanding, at least in part. I wonder how the knowledge that Cornelia is investigating what happened to Lelouch's family will affect his thirst for vengeance. With his family members each revealing themselves as decent human beings, Lelouch is losing more reason to hate them. What does this mean for his purpose in the Rebellion?

People say that because Lelouch showed friendliness to Euphemia, he's all up for siscon. I point out that Lelouch is generally nice to girls, and I think the flashback revealed that Lelouch's family had always been close to Euphemia. I think this was another reason he stayed his hand back during the hotel incident, the exact behavior that led Euphemia to believe he was Zero. I didn't pay much attention to other aspects of this episode until the surprise attack at the end because I think I need to really know what's being said in the Gawain and Black Knights scenes to truly appreciate them. Summaries are not going to do it.

I hope we get more of Suzaku's reaction to the whole "live" incident next week since he didn't have any character-revealing moments in his time with Kallen, aside from his telling her he killed his father. I think this is a big step for him. Words cannot describe how much I adore the way Lelouch GEASSed Suzaku. When I first saw the shot of Suzaku with the red-rimmed eyes associated with GEASS, I was sad because I thought Lelouch was finally favoring the Rebellion over Suzaku. I was extremely relieved to learn his GEASS command to Suzaku was simply "live." Others are talking about the command having a lasting effect, which I think would be smart of the creators, but I'm not sure if they're going to do it. In the past, we've seen the GEASS can last for an infinite time when a non-descript command is given. People ask why Lelouch didn't use multiple commands at once such as "Fight your way out of here. Leave Britannia. Join the Black Knights." I think the most obvious reason is that Lelouch wanted immediate action. He knew Suzaku was going to sacrifice himself to ensure Zero was destroyed, and had to revert that decision immediately. He probably didn't have time to evaluate all the possible commands. He never intended to GEASS Suzaku in the first place so it was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

I think the command itself shows Lelouch's continued loyalty to Suzaku, although I fully admit it also allowed Lelouch the opportunity to escape himself. But that was a gamble, and we're not even fully sure how that happened; it's hinted it has something to do with the unseen GEASS user. It seems to me Lelouch was more focused on getting Suzaku out of harm's way than escaping himself -- He could have told Suzaku to simply "Get us out of here"-- but I'm an optimist when it comes to them so I could be wrong. I wonder if the GEASS user zapped everyone to the island to simply put the Gawain in Lelouch's possession or if they know about Lelouch and the royals. I'm also unsure why Suzaku freaks out when the whole group is controlled by the GEASS teleportation at the end of the episode. Is he recalling what happened with C.C.?

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Somewhat OT, but what does siscon mean right now, actually? In J-fandom it usually means you're very attached to your sister or more liable to be much nicer to them than the rest of the universe, but it seems the E-fandom tends to take it to 'bordering on incestual'. By first definition I would put LL as a siscon...well, he's ALWAYS been a siscon, really. By second...I don't think it ever crossed his mind, though I wouldn't be surprised if Euphemia had a mild crush on him back in the day.

I agree, Lelouch-Euphie > Kallen-Suzaku. The best irony in your comparison : Kallen calling Euphemia a doll who can't do a thing herself. lol Kallen, guess who actually couldn't do a thing himself? I think my love for Lulu just shot over the roof AGAIN, if that's even possible. There's his sheer dorky cuteness in this episode that you wouldn't think possible, and there's his incredibly touching Geass order, which I also think would be a lasting effect---Suzaku's going to try his damnedest to stay alive without knowing what he's doing, which might backfire tragically sometime later like everything else LL does. And if Euphie was second to CC in my female character evaluation last time, she's top now. Euphie's "Wut u say!?" face is incredible, and Britannian Royal Imperiousness = Pwnage.

Why LL didn't Geass More Sensibly = Spur of the moment. Plus, I don't think LL wants Suzaku to go to his side with the Geass. He wants approval in the real sense, there's too much pride, and there's too much sadness. LL wants his action to have meaning, and it means nothing if he treats people he cares about as pawns, since they're the only line he has now between the Lelouch and the Demon Warlord.

As for Suzaku, I have not a clue. I thought he was recalling CC's event, too, since the power seems to be the same type...or perhaps there's something more. Hard to say. Has to love CC's "I told you I am not his lover" issue, though.

I would really enjoy it if Lelouch's attempt to save his friend (and effectively himself) blew up in his face just like each of Lelouch's unconscious/conscious attempts to preserve his humanity in face of the Geass' power. I think what I enjoy about Lelouch other than his dorky failures at life is how incredibly broken he is at being what everyone (as in the fandom) wants him to be. He has all this power, he has crazy vengeance, he should be evil/a socialpath/Light. But instead he's this excellent, calculating strategist who freezes up when he most needs to take action. I love him for it.

I also like you opinion on why Lelouch doesn't want to win Suzaku over with the Geass. I have had this opinion since he found out Suzaku was the Lancelot pilot. Why does he keep approaching Suzaku as Zero? Why doesn't he try to win Suzaku over while continuing his role as Lelouch? Approval would be a good way to explain it. He wants his actions to be sanctioned by someone whose opinion truly matters most to him. ~~Seriously, I am trying to be as non-slashy as possible but a fangirl is still a fangirl.~~ Your point about Lelouch trying desperately to maintain that line between him and a warlord is also a good one.

I want to know what C.C. was talking about as far as Kallen? I still think C.C. has some latent jealous toward Kallen, even if it's just in a "why do you rely on her so much?" way.

That part, C.C. was like "wait, Kallen isn't back either. Why that pervert, he's gone off and got him in a situation where he's with a woman and alone, again" or something like that.

blargh, it's too bad i only watched this once so my memory of the japanese isn't great -.-;;; once i get back home i'll translate it more properly (i'm at work~~~)

Awesome. XD Even better than I hoped.

Actually, that whole part was...

C.C. : Thanks to your teasing, I had to talk to that tiresome man... *presumably hears about Kallen* Even Kallen is on the island? You have really bad taste, to [something I'm not sure] an observer."

there you go!!! I knew i was off on this one!

thanks! :D

I would say that he's preserving his humanity in the face of an unrelenting reality that has very, very slippery slopes instead. XD The Geass is just a tool, after all. I sure wouldn't want him to be like Light, though! Light is a been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Lelouch is very much uncharted territory, and he's intriguing. Your summary sums that aspect of him up nicely and I have nothing to comment. <3

Lelouch's been wanting approval for a long time. He's been trying to get Suzaku to 'accept' the Kishidan since Episode 9, if you'll recall, though with very little success. XD I don't think he was even expecting SZK to join him at that point, but simply wanting a "maybe they COULD be right about some things". He's emotionally insecure despite being a really strong character.

See below. :D She didn't say much, but I don't think she was very pleased. The 'person she talks to' was teasing/asking after her relationship with Lelouch back in...12, I think, and he/she possibly thinks it's funny.

As much as I love Light, I don't want Lulu to be a Light clone. If I want Light I'll go watch the very wonderful Death Note anime currently running or look at the manga. So I really LIKE the fact that Lulu is struggling so much and hestitant. His fall from grace seems more subtle and gradual. But I do notice some harping in the fandom about how Lulu isn't evil enough and I don't get it. Why do they need him to be more evil? Maybe because the rumors/spoilers keep saying that he will takes certain steps towards heartlessness/evil and they expect it to happen right away for some reason. But if he's meant to be evil then he will eventually be, so they should just be patient.

Though I don't think Lulu will ever be like Light even if he does become a "villain"...he still has some goodness in him that won't be crushed so easily (like his love for Nunnally).

The way I see it is the only way Lelouch can achieve the darkness some of the interviews hint at is he would have to lose one of his special people. I hope it's not Nunnally. I also don't understand why people want so much for him to be evil and get all pissed when he isn't a cold-hearted bastard all the time. I like it that he surprises us; predictable characters are only so much fun.

Lulu and Light are completely different. I've said Lulu is like Light + Kamui, but Lulu is not Lulu = Light.

Mostly because when Light sees Misa Misa, he immediately thinks "I better not fall in love with her. that's how all those stupid guys lose in the end" or something like that.

While Lulu obviously has attachments to several ppl in his life such as Nanully and Suzaku and possibly Euphie. Also Lulu's one of the main objective is to create a world that's peaceful for Nanully. while Light wants to create a world that's basically HIS and judged by HIM ALONE. sorta deal.

so no worries about Lulu ever becoming Light. :P

Lulu was actually a criminally nice person as a child, and he's still rather nice deep down in his silly little heart. I'm not sure why fandom wants him to be like Light. Light's sociopathy was fascinating, but it's also one-dimensional. Lelouch is going against his nature with his decisions and delusions, and I think it makes for a much, much more interesting character. Maybe they want him to be smarter? I like his plans being flawed, though. It makes him so much more 17th year old human and not this calculations machine. (This doesn't mean I don't like Light, it's just that Zero is a more multifaceted character than Kira)

Unless she dies. He might really become a monster that way, though I also think he wouldn't ever really become irredeemable.

Criminally nice as a child? I saw his unwillingness to fight and his oh so adorable smiles for his family/siblings, but criminally nice is an interesting way of putting it. I mean this in a "aww" way and not a smartass way.

Fandom does want Lelouch to be smarter, and I can't understand why. If he's perfect, then he's boring. People don't like it when characters succeed too much, and Lelouch has his fair share of victories and failures. I think he presents a nice balance.

I think as long as Suzaku or Nunnally remain in Lelouch's life, he will always be within reach of the light, as corny as that sounds.

It's his reasoning behind things now and then both, the way he acts towards Nanaly (which seems to be the way he acted to most people he didn't feel threatened with, when he was young) plus the way he worded stuff as a kid that led me to this conclusion. I do have um kinda a soft spot for kids, of course, so I'm hardly unbiased.

I'll admit to wanting him to do more interesting tactics somewhere around Episode 10, but from then to now I've dealt with the fact that Lulu goes with the most practical way out of a situation, and not the most spectacular. It's the way you win chess, after all, a series of sensible plans instead of whizbang movements (unless *that* is needed). It's just that he was fairly unconventional in his Episode 1 Chess and I think fans wanted that to extend to his plans, when it was really just an illustration of his methods.

Aye, and that's the problem, isn't it?

I could see him going crazy and turning into a monster if Nunnally dies, but even then he won't be like Light. He's just not as cold-blooded.

All I know is I don't want Lulu to end up like Light. I suppose him being redeemed might be a cop-out? But I really want him to come out on top in the end. It worries me though because the creators keep calling him a "villain" and we all know villains in anime (even if they are main characters) never win. Something tragic is going to happen though that's for sure.

I like seeing his inner-struggle too. It does make him more interesting. Though I wouldn't say Light isn't just as interesting....it's really fascinating to see and compare Kira!Light to memoryless Light. Prior to his obtaining the death note and while memoryless, Light is actually a good person and rather innocent, so it makes it all the more tragic when his Kira persona returns again. Though you're right that when he is Kira there is no struggle there....he just makes a decision and doesn't bat an eye at the consquences.

Anyway, I like both characters for what they are. ^__^ Though I think if it came to a showdown between Kira and Zero and they started on equal ground (meaning starting out not knowing the identity of the other), Light would win in the end. He's just the better strategist and has better long term vision imho. Lulu can be brilliant, but boy does he bungle things up alot. I have a feeling Schneizel is probably less messy with his strategies. Plus Light doesn't have any attachments to anyone. Nunnally is a big weakness for Lulu, though she also helps him keep his humanity.

...and I'm rambling on for far too long. Sorry about that. ^_^;;;

I am hinging on the "success story, revenge tragedy" comment made waaaaaaay early in the series. We have a gist of why it's tragic now, I think, which leaves the success part. The word they used was more 'bad person' than a 'villain', though.

Of course Light is interesting. XD I'm just saying he's rather less multifaceted (he is no dork, for one thing). But the memoryless Light and the Kira Light was a comparison based almost solely on a philosophical basis, if we're looking from the authorial intent point of view. It's almost in despite of his usual character, a showcase of what-could-be. Light's main draw is his desire being something we all identify with, even if it's warped, so that was basically asking us a question. Light's not there to discover the answer, as he reverts the moment he gets the note back. LL's more ambiguous, his desire is more personal, we're asked to sympathize, not identify. His chiaroscuro is blended into his identity. And his question? Is directed at him, not us. We're asked the question, too, but he also is. It's made integrated IC instead of detached IC, thus more multifaceted.

I love Light, though. He DOES have many interesting conundrums of his own, unrelated to Lelouch's. Canon doesn't delve into them as much compared to the "power corrupts" problem or the morality question, more's the pity, but that doesn't change how interesting he is. ^^ And dude yes, Light would win. Light's much more of a strategist, much more resourceful. I see Zero more as a leader. His plans do not work with double results in mind.

I so totally agree with your analysis. Throughout the series Lelouch has been compared to Light but this episode clearly showed that Lelouch is not all head but he still has a heart unlike Light. With Light my approval went down as time went on with him utter cold-bloodedness but with Lelouch even though he is becoming more cold-blooded he still retains kindess to those that REALLY precious to him.

When I found out that Lulu told Suzaku to "live" my heart melted. True he was saving himself too but he could have said "evade". This shows that he was following his heart in the spur of the moment instead of using his head. As stated by Mao, wording of the commands are everything.

I was so afraid because the spoilers say that he was gonna become more and more cold but its this far down the road and he still at least has people that are important to him. I really didn't want him to turn into his dad.

People are still comparing him to Light? While that couldn't be helped early on, I think it's obvious by now that Lelouch is quite different from Light. Lelouch's problem is in perception, he's partly Suzumiya Haruhi in that he views people he doesn't know personally as potatoes/chess pieces. It's the way he's raised and the way he's survived his 'dead years', I suppose, which was why CC needed to reality check'd him that they are people. Even then, he avoids 'tactically unnecessary casualties'. He simply has something he has to do that justifies everything. ('They killed Mother/Japan/destroyed our lives, it doesn't matter' which is quite human really)

I know. ;_; Plus, it's how LL thinks Suzaku wants to die, too, so that could be just "Stop hurting yourself so much, you idiot" in less verbose terms. Most moving use of Geass ever.

Something drastic would probably happen to him later. Not sure when, though.

I'm still impressed Lelouch used his one and only trump card against the person he *knows* can and will easily kick his ass. That's a sacrifice in of itself, especially since he's been somewhat more cautious with the Geass since Mao.

Does he really consider Suzaku his enemy right now, though? Since he just pwned the Lancelot, I think LL views Suzaku as something of an "I can deal with it without the Geass" problem, which may or may not be an accurate assessment of himself.

I don't think the problem so much is Lelouch's viewpoint as Suzaku's, as we've seen Suzaku is pretty adamant about catching Zero. But you could be right about Lelouch thinking he has the upper hand now that he knows Lancelot's tricks. But I think it's still pretty risk on Lelouch's part and shows part of him is dead set on seeing he wins over Suzaku by safer means.

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Episode 19 discussion?

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strictly opinion

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