Episode 19 discussion?

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Since the last episode discussion post went so well, I figured why not give it another go-around? My original plan was to post these on Saturdays so people had a good day to check out the raw and track down summaries and the like but since I enjoy the discussions myself and won't be around much Saturday, this one comes a bit early.

I'd also like to point out that I am extremely biased in what I talk about to start the discussion so if you have characters/topics you're more interested in, feel free to thread about them as well.



I knew the island arc would be entertaining, but I was hardly expecting it to be good. I love that Euphemia knew who Zero was the entire time but never told Cornelia because she didn't want to cause her sister any more pain by knowing it was their own brother fighting against them. I love Euphemia in general now. The scene where Lelouch and Suzaku are facing off and Kallen's basically calling Euphemia a vapid princess just before Euphemia tells Suzaku to forget about her and kick Kallen's ass, that was the first sign of Euphemia's edge that I've ever seen. I liked it. Not as much as Lelouch totally failing at survival life, unable to even dig a hole. Why were you born a man, Lulu? It was hilarious of the writers to continuously compare Lelouch's failures with Suzaku's leet fishing skills.

Though I agree with the anime bloggers that the Euphie/Lulu parts were hella better than Suza/Kallen. Suzaku and Kallen were just a world of bitchery, while Euphemia and Lelouch had connection and understanding, at least in part. I wonder how the knowledge that Cornelia is investigating what happened to Lelouch's family will affect his thirst for vengeance. With his family members each revealing themselves as decent human beings, Lelouch is losing more reason to hate them. What does this mean for his purpose in the Rebellion?

People say that because Lelouch showed friendliness to Euphemia, he's all up for siscon. I point out that Lelouch is generally nice to girls, and I think the flashback revealed that Lelouch's family had always been close to Euphemia. I think this was another reason he stayed his hand back during the hotel incident, the exact behavior that led Euphemia to believe he was Zero. I didn't pay much attention to other aspects of this episode until the surprise attack at the end because I think I need to really know what's being said in the Gawain and Black Knights scenes to truly appreciate them. Summaries are not going to do it.

I hope we get more of Suzaku's reaction to the whole "live" incident next week since he didn't have any character-revealing moments in his time with Kallen, aside from his telling her he killed his father. I think this is a big step for him. Words cannot describe how much I adore the way Lelouch GEASSed Suzaku. When I first saw the shot of Suzaku with the red-rimmed eyes associated with GEASS, I was sad because I thought Lelouch was finally favoring the Rebellion over Suzaku. I was extremely relieved to learn his GEASS command to Suzaku was simply "live." Others are talking about the command having a lasting effect, which I think would be smart of the creators, but I'm not sure if they're going to do it. In the past, we've seen the GEASS can last for an infinite time when a non-descript command is given. People ask why Lelouch didn't use multiple commands at once such as "Fight your way out of here. Leave Britannia. Join the Black Knights." I think the most obvious reason is that Lelouch wanted immediate action. He knew Suzaku was going to sacrifice himself to ensure Zero was destroyed, and had to revert that decision immediately. He probably didn't have time to evaluate all the possible commands. He never intended to GEASS Suzaku in the first place so it was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

I think the command itself shows Lelouch's continued loyalty to Suzaku, although I fully admit it also allowed Lelouch the opportunity to escape himself. But that was a gamble, and we're not even fully sure how that happened; it's hinted it has something to do with the unseen GEASS user. It seems to me Lelouch was more focused on getting Suzaku out of harm's way than escaping himself -- He could have told Suzaku to simply "Get us out of here"-- but I'm an optimist when it comes to them so I could be wrong. I wonder if the GEASS user zapped everyone to the island to simply put the Gawain in Lelouch's possession or if they know about Lelouch and the royals. I'm also unsure why Suzaku freaks out when the whole group is controlled by the GEASS teleportation at the end of the episode. Is he recalling what happened with C.C.?

Comments

[mitzrael.livejournal.com]

With those comments in mind I'm going to watch ep18 and then comment myself =P ( couldn't watch it yet 'cause of stupid exam in the morning _-_U)

tl;dr

[verity-isle.livejournal.com]

Somewhat OT, but what does siscon mean right now, actually? In J-fandom it usually means you're very attached to your sister or more liable to be much nicer to them than the rest of the universe, but it seems the E-fandom tends to take it to 'bordering on incestual'. By first definition I would put LL as a siscon...well, he's ALWAYS been a siscon, really. By second...I don't think it ever crossed his mind, though I wouldn't be surprised if Euphemia had a mild crush on him back in the day.

I agree, Lelouch-Euphie > Kallen-Suzaku. The best irony in your comparison : Kallen calling Euphemia a doll who can't do a thing herself. lol Kallen, guess who actually couldn't do a thing himself? I think my love for Lulu just shot over the roof AGAIN, if that's even possible. There's his sheer dorky cuteness in this episode that you wouldn't think possible, and there's his incredibly touching Geass order, which I also think would be a lasting effect---Suzaku's going to try his damnedest to stay alive without knowing what he's doing, which might backfire tragically sometime later like everything else LL does. And if Euphie was second to CC in my female character evaluation last time, she's top now. Euphie's "Wut u say!?" face is incredible, and Britannian Royal Imperiousness = Pwnage.

Why LL didn't Geass More Sensibly = Spur of the moment. Plus, I don't think LL wants Suzaku to go to his side with the Geass. He wants approval in the real sense, there's too much pride, and there's too much sadness. LL wants his action to have meaning, and it means nothing if he treats people he cares about as pawns, since they're the only line he has now between the Lelouch and the Demon Warlord.

As for Suzaku, I have not a clue. I thought he was recalling CC's event, too, since the power seems to be the same type...or perhaps there's something more. Hard to say. Has to love CC's "I told you I am not his lover" issue, though.

Re: tl;dr

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I would really enjoy it if Lelouch's attempt to save his friend (and effectively himself) blew up in his face just like each of Lelouch's unconscious/conscious attempts to preserve his humanity in face of the Geass' power. I think what I enjoy about Lelouch other than his dorky failures at life is how incredibly broken he is at being what everyone (as in the fandom) wants him to be. He has all this power, he has crazy vengeance, he should be evil/a socialpath/Light. But instead he's this excellent, calculating strategist who freezes up when he most needs to take action. I love him for it.

I also like you opinion on why Lelouch doesn't want to win Suzaku over with the Geass. I have had this opinion since he found out Suzaku was the Lancelot pilot. Why does he keep approaching Suzaku as Zero? Why doesn't he try to win Suzaku over while continuing his role as Lelouch? Approval would be a good way to explain it. He wants his actions to be sanctioned by someone whose opinion truly matters most to him. Seriously, I am trying to be as non-slashy as possible but a fangirl is still a fangirl. Your point about Lelouch trying desperately to maintain that line between him and a warlord is also a good one.

I want to know what C.C. was talking about as far as Kallen? I still think C.C. has some latent jealous toward Kallen, even if it's just in a "why do you rely on her so much?" way.

Re: tl;dr

[rukawagf.livejournal.com]

That part, C.C. was like "wait, Kallen isn't back either. Why that pervert, he's gone off and got him in a situation where he's with a woman and alone, again" or something like that.

blargh, it's too bad i only watched this once so my memory of the japanese isn't great -.-;;; once i get back home i'll translate it more properly (i'm at work~~~)

Re: tl;dr

[verity-isle.livejournal.com]

I would say that he's preserving his humanity in the face of an unrelenting reality that has very, very slippery slopes instead. XD The Geass is just a tool, after all. I sure wouldn't want him to be like Light, though! Light is a been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Lelouch is very much uncharted territory, and he's intriguing. Your summary sums that aspect of him up nicely and I have nothing to comment. <3

Lelouch's been wanting approval for a long time. He's been trying to get Suzaku to 'accept' the Kishidan since Episode 9, if you'll recall, though with very little success. XD I don't think he was even expecting SZK to join him at that point, but simply wanting a "maybe they COULD be right about some things". He's emotionally insecure despite being a really strong character.

See below. :D She didn't say much, but I don't think she was very pleased. The 'person she talks to' was teasing/asking after her relationship with Lelouch back in...12, I think, and he/she possibly thinks it's funny.

Re: tl;dr

[zalem.livejournal.com]

As much as I love Light, I don't want Lulu to be a Light clone. If I want Light I'll go watch the very wonderful Death Note anime currently running or look at the manga. So I really LIKE the fact that Lulu is struggling so much and hestitant. His fall from grace seems more subtle and gradual. But I do notice some harping in the fandom about how Lulu isn't evil enough and I don't get it. Why do they need him to be more evil? Maybe because the rumors/spoilers keep saying that he will takes certain steps towards heartlessness/evil and they expect it to happen right away for some reason. But if he's meant to be evil then he will eventually be, so they should just be patient.

Though I don't think Lulu will ever be like Light even if he does become a "villain"...he still has some goodness in him that won't be crushed so easily (like his love for Nunnally).

Re: tl;dr

[(Anonymous)]

I so totally agree with your analysis. Throughout the series Lelouch has been compared to Light but this episode clearly showed that Lelouch is not all head but he still has a heart unlike Light. With Light my approval went down as time went on with him utter cold-bloodedness but with Lelouch even though he is becoming more cold-blooded he still retains kindess to those that REALLY precious to him.

When I found out that Lulu told Suzaku to "live" my heart melted. True he was saving himself too but he could have said "evade". This shows that he was following his heart in the spur of the moment instead of using his head. As stated by Mao, wording of the commands are everything.

I was so afraid because the spoilers say that he was gonna become more and more cold but its this far down the road and he still at least has people that are important to him. I really didn't want him to turn into his dad.

Re: tl;dr

[verity-isle.livejournal.com]

People are still comparing him to Light? While that couldn't be helped early on, I think it's obvious by now that Lelouch is quite different from Light. Lelouch's problem is in perception, he's partly Suzumiya Haruhi in that he views people he doesn't know personally as potatoes/chess pieces. It's the way he's raised and the way he's survived his 'dead years', I suppose, which was why CC needed to reality check'd him that they are people. Even then, he avoids 'tactically unnecessary casualties'. He simply has something he has to do that justifies everything. ('They killed Mother/Japan/destroyed our lives, it doesn't matter' which is quite human really)

I know. ;_; Plus, it's how LL thinks Suzaku wants to die, too, so that could be just "Stop hurting yourself so much, you idiot" in less verbose terms. Most moving use of Geass ever.

Something drastic would probably happen to him later. Not sure when, though.

[tatooine.livejournal.com]

Lelouch's command to Suzaku was really interesting in light of Lelouch musing for most of 17.5 about how Suzaku possibly wanted to die, didn't care about living, was serving in the Britannian military as his atonement for having killed his dad. If "live" is going to be a long-lasting command, that'll have a pretty serious impact on Suzaku in the long run...

Anyone know what Lelouch said to Euphie about Suzaku? All I caught was his name.

[rukawagf.livejournal.com]

he said

"why did you make a non Britanian your knight?"

[rukawagf.livejournal.com]

i think he also said "What does Suzaku mean to you?" but i have to rewatch and hear the japanese again. I'm at work now so I can't help ya, sorries :P

[tatooine.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much!

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Now threesomes I'm up for. They'd be so cute!

Yeah, I like how 17.5 actually had a purpose compared with many recaps since getting Lelouch's view on the situation ties into his actions at the end of 18. It's why I would like to believe that Lelouch deliberately chose it, though it might have just been a "at the back of his head"/unconscious wish. Lelouch severely laments Suzaku's apparent death wish. It would make for some interesting times if it is long-lasting, as I'm sure Lelouch would prefer.

Though if it is a standing command, it questions over the morality in Lelouch playing God over his friend. I know he does it with everyone else, but he seems to care much more when it's people he cares about.

[tatooine.livejournal.com]

I almost didn't watch the recap, since I figured it would just be Lelouch whining about his boyfriend leaving him for his sister, but it was suprisingly good! I mean, as recap eps go. I'd have preferred to just stick that "o i bet suzaku rly wants to die D:" observation in Lelouch's thought process somewhere and devoted an episode to, like, Cornelia and Euphie's adventures in the Secret Garden, or Cecile feeding Suzaku.

Heh, and he didn't Geass Euphie, either. I call Lulu and Euphie merging their harems for great justice at someome in the near future.

[verity-isle.livejournal.com]

The threesome would bring the question of who bottoms, Lulu or Euphie. I find this most interesting

He was just joking about himself being an incompetent knight, and then goes "BTW, about Kururugi Suzaku, your real Knight. Can I ask why you chose a Honorary Britannian?"

And then wham! Said Honorary Britannian appeared.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I'm going with Lulu. XD

I'm curious why Lelouch cares why Euphemia chose Suzaku.

[rukawagf.livejournal.com]

actually, i was more screaming "CLAMP!!! YOU COPIED GUNDAM SEEEEEEEEED!!!!!" XD

the fireplace night scene with Suza X Kallen is sooooo Athrun x Cagali at their island scene, all the way down to Cagali/Kallen held prisoner XD That and when Suzaku confesses "I killed my own father" that scene reminded me of Athrun saying "I killed Kira" to Cagali later XD ah well. it was still awsome XD


Personally I love Lulu's command "LIVE!!!" a lot. He didn't say "Make sure we all live!" or "get us the hell outta here" he said in a bit more unselfish way, and to help Suzaku's suicidal intents.

Now I'm curious, what Suzaku will do later when he's in danger. Would he try to follow the command blindly again? :P

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Well, isn't it more of Sunrise's series than Clamp? Clamp just contributes the designs, which is turn contribute to overall tragedy of all the characters. XD

I forgot about the Athrun confession. You're so right! At least Geass didn't go all the way and make Suzaku and Kallen more tolerant toward each other after everything. In fact, I think Kallen dislikes Suzaku even more now, and Suzaku sure isn't as fond of Kallen. I love how he notes that Kallen is entirely different from how she is at school.

The command fits perfectly into my opinion of Lelouch being totally in love with Suzaku but that's neither here or there so let's just ignore this statement shall we. See my reply to crazythorn for more on my reaction to the meaning of the "LIVE!!" scene. ^^;;

[zalem.livejournal.com]

Must say I was really ambivalent about Euphie before...just didn't care one way or another about her. I guess because I was a bit skeptical she was a Lacus-clone. But I think I am rather fond of her after this episode. I do hope she develops more. Looks like someone's gonna have to save Euphie from Nina's evil clutches next episode.

LOL...lulu. Such a silly, silly boy. *pets*

I agree with most of you guys in that the Euphie/Lulu scenes were way more interesting. I really don't want to see Lulu fighting his siblings anymore ;-;...Lulu you moron, they actually LIKE you and probably had nothing to do with your mom's death. But that father of his is another story...I still think he's a right bastard.

Damn, I really love this series! ^__^

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I still wonder what the series actually plans for Nina? But I'm happy to see that they're actually going to go somewhere with her plot by having her meet up with Euphemia. I want something bad to happen.

I liked hearing how Lelouch wouldn't mind going back to his life with his sisters, but near the end he regretted that not being possible. I wonder if Lelouch truly has changed his mind on Cornelia or not. He seems closer to Euphemia so opening up to her is easier for him. Now we just have to figure out how Schneizel (that name is killer hard to pronounce) feels about the situation.

[tatooine.livejournal.com]

I was thinking the scene with Euphie and Nina might have been "Euphie tried to stalk Lelouch and wound up at the clubhouse with Nina."

[oh-geass-no.livejournal.com]

This whole episode was really nifty, I thinks~! Lots of OH SNAP moments and revealings of things. Can't go wrong with Lulu getting a shiny new knightmare either.

I have to say, one of the most amusing things about this episode for me, is that it's on an island, so I get to see how Lelouch would survive on one and he... isn't very good at it. Ah ha ha I get to do some muse torture later.

It really makes me wonder just what Lulu can do in the terms of survival. He obviously is pretty failget at the most of it, but can he even cook or anything? Haha, oh , the curiousity.

. . . Then again, since he always orders out for C.C. and has a maid, I get the feeling he doesn't know much, if anything about cooking. Oops.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

At least Lelouch can sew his own clothes if worst comes to worst. He might be able to do some interior decorating around a cave. XD

[verity-isle.livejournal.com]

If Producer Kawaguchi can be prevailed on, which I think he's less reliable than Taniguchi and Okouchi, then Lelouch is pretty darn good at cooking as long as it's the classical style (everything else is an IN THEORY). On top of carpentry and sewing. Which might not bode well for his island ingredient-life, oops.

As for actual survival, I think he fails at life. Which is amusing. And hi, I should pop to the rp sometime now shouldn't I

[magical-poof.livejournal.com]

I just kinda have a short comment. Telling Suzaku to "live" totally changes his approach to life, though. Remember how he's constantly risking himself to save others? Well, no more of those stupid stunts... I think it might really affect how he does thinks and his self-sacrificing attitude will be completely gone or conflicting against the Geass...