code_geass | Two cents

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Two cents

First off, I like this anime because it involves war, political intrigue, friendship, and betrayal. Then I was miffed at the stereotypical characters--bad protagonist, heroic antagonist/best friend/greatest enemy, sexy and mysterious girl with mystical powers, helpless sister, megalomaniac king.

And then, as other LJ people have mentioned, they're not stereotypical after all. They're not completely good/bad people...most of them anyway.

There were two things I hated: (1) the Pizza Hut product placement, but this has already been beaten and murdered in other posts so I won't do it, and (2) the god-awful deus ex machina.

There were plenty of deus ex machina in Code Geass (read: V.V.), but what annoyed me most was when Euphie dropped out of nowhere and into Suzaku's arms. Somebody explain to me why a princess would drop out of nowhere? Ah, *forehead smack* convenient plot device...of course.

Many people don't like Euphie because she's a Lacus clone. I initially agree. But when she became a killing doll, I liked it. She became one of Lelouch's many accidental pawns in that last-8-minute chess game of his. This confirms Euphie's purpose in the series: convenient momental plot device.

Now Nina. Everyone is creeped out. But I like it that there's a one-sided-stalker-worship-dirty-love going on with Nina. She never really had anyone care for her before, and here comes this radiant glowing princess that values Nina's life so much that she's willing to exchange her life for hers. Nina is so awestruck because no one ever does this for her before that she entrusts her never-ending and never-wavering loyalty and devotion to her. Someone actually treasured her, in Nina's view. So the girl who was never appreciated before becomes obssessed with the radiant princess because she's afraid no one would appreciate her life again. I kinda understand it.

Suzaku. Agree with the initial Kira-clone impression. Agree with the later omg-he's-actually-two-dimensional-because-of-that-patricide impression. I truly appreciate characters who are not one-dimensional. I don't like perfect characters. I like it that he's a contradictory character. I like it that he's trying to convince himself of doing the right thing, justifying himself of his father's murder. He's haunted by all the bad things he did, but he still weaves the illusion onto himself that "this is for the good". He has a mask, just like Lelouch's Zero, but Suzaku's mask is harder to remove as it's from childhood. I agree that he keeps repressing all that emotion. Once, he managed to let a bit out in front of Lelouch, but that's just a bit. His guilt is slowly eating him and he doesn't notice it. Euphie was, once again--convenient plot device--, the trigger to release all that pent-up emotion since childhood. He doesn't care anymore. He doesn't care that Nunnally is in danger. He doesn't care that Japan is in complete chaos. He doesn't care that Lelouch is his best friend. He doesn't care. All he cares about is killing this guy, riddle him with bullets and make sure he's DEAD.

I haven't read Suzaku of the Counterattack, you see.
A favor? Would anyone mind doing a character sketch of Suzaku? I really want to understand him more.

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Yay, Suzaku! I am always willing to discuss him. :D What you've said already sums him up quite nicely - his need for justification, his repression of his true nature. The 'white knight' image doesn't suit him at all when you get down to it, he just wishes it did.

Including some copy&paste from my ship manifesto:

Suzaku is impulsive to the extreme. If Lelouch is all about planning and manipulation, Suzaku is all about reaction and passion. Whenever a problem arises, he throws himself into the middle of it, and all the better if it’s dangerous. He has a hero complex, a need to do the right thing and take responsibility. We can tell from flashbacks that he really was a kind-hearted kid, but now he relies on an exterior of compassion to hide a much less noble nature. "At first, I thought he was a truly kind person. But don't you think his reactions towards human lives is a little abnormal?" remarks Cecile in episode 14.

His self-sacrificing is a pretense, to mask and make up for the sin of killing his father. He excuses it when given the chance. His guilt is so tremendous that he is passively suicidal, putting himself in situations where he might die for a good cause. Suzaku lies to himself; on the outside, he's open and friendly and honest, but inside he's nothing but instinct. He doesn't question himself, he just goes through the motions. Suzaku can't acknowledge what he wants because his wish is such a selfish thing, it's better to coat it with illusions of righteousness.

But then Euphemia dies, and Suzaku's idealism shatters to pieces. He finally starts to accept his ill-intentions, not entirely, but he's beginning to be honest with himself. Up until the end, Suzaku has had blind faith in his friend even though he has identified the similarities between Lelouch and Zero. He'll fight for vengeance now. He acknowledges that it's his fault for allowing Lelouch to live, that it was a mistake and he's going to fix it by killing him.

I like to think of Suzaku in layers, because you can't deny he's got that soft, gentle side, so his "boku" persona isn't entirely fabricated. Lelouch knows something's different with him, but he's still Suzaku. Have you read the translations for the sound episodes or the picture drama about the season finale? They're incredibly insightful when it comes to Suzaku. I should go over them again myself before launching into an analysis XD;

Regarding the end where he and Lelouch face off - I think it's more than just a release of everything he's repressed, I think it's all the more violent just because it's Lelouch who did it. I admit, I'm a Suzaku/Lelouch fangirl, but shipping aside I still think their relationship is significant to the betrayal scene.

Suzaku sees his own selfishness mirrored in Lelouch, hates it, and needs to put an end to it. He has come to rely on the affirmation that he's a good person, that everyone can be good, and puts that faith in Lelouch. This is exemplified by his frequent rescuing of Lelouch, and how he suspects Lelouch is Zero early on, but never does anything about it - even by the end, right before Euphemia's death, Suzaku tries to win Lelouch over rather than call him out. His justification only works through peaceful, non-violent means. But Lelouch rejects him. Killing Euphemia is only the physical aspect of the betrayal, because the essence is that Lelouch shattered his trust, his ideals, and to an extent destroyed everything Suzaku had built himself to be.

(Also important to note Euphemia represented a lofty ideal for both of them, and Lelouch tried to honestly accept that - but the part of him that's Zero can't have that, so we get the Geass triggering and everything breaking down.)

Don't forget the phoenix theme going on with Suzaku. :3 In Eastern lore it's a symbol of loyalty, honesty, justice, obedience, fidelity, and the union of yin and yang. The Western version of the phoenix most commonly represents rebirth through self-immolation. Suzaku recreates himself after his father's death to fit an ideal. When that image is destroyed, he changes once more (plus, Lelouch gets the opposing/complimentary dragon association).

...Sorry for the babble, Suzaku is my favorite and I find him to be the most fascinating character. XD;

Edited 2008-01-31 16:47 (UTC)

I think reading this and realizing that these points you made are so very true has made me actual like Suzaku a little. I never considered these kinds of details. <3

:D That's extremely nice to hear! I'm always sad when people write him off as just a hypocrite, because that's exactly what makes him so interesting and complex. You don't have to like him, but he's most certainly a multi-faceted character.

Twin icons, eeeee XD ♥

GAH, I AM SO JEALOUS OF YOUR TWIN ICONNAGE. D:

Wooow, some nice description of our favorite Jesus! Although I still think Suzaku wasn't always a kind hearted person. That's why I think Lelouch is always saying he "sure is different".

(Also important to note Euphemia represented a lofty ideal for both of them, and Lelouch tried to honestly accept that - but the part of him that's Zero can't have that, so we get the Geass triggering and everything breaking down.)

Oh WOW never though about that! I think what made Lulu upset when Suzaku turned into Euphie's knight wasn't only Nunnally... It's obvious he still loved Euphie, it was the only sibling he couldn't really kill for the same reason as the others. Because he really felt she wasn't to blame, he considered her as close as Nunnally. And even after she chose Suzaku rather than Lulu, he (like you said) accepted it and moved on. But that geass theory is really neat! Maybe that's why later on Lulu finally manages a way to overcome it. Needs April now.

But there's still something I don't get.. About what Lulu said on the last episode, why didn't he tell Suzaku the truth? The reason why Suzaku hates Lulu so much is because he REALLY thinks he planned all of it and even used Euphie as a pawn (in the end, he really did it... but it's not like he WISHED for it like say, the way Suzaku wished his own father's death!). If I were Suzaku, I'd probably react the same if facing a revelation like that one. But that wasn't the whole part of the story and Lelouch could've explained why that happened but he didn't... My SuzaLulu fangirl side tells me Lulu did that so poor Suzaku-kun wouldn't have a brain explosion ;_; He'd probably start blaming himself for falling in love with Euphie or something. *bricked*

Lelouch is obviously still very attached to Euphie to me. He can't kill her during the hotel-jacking though he did have time. Despite the fact you can interpret his eventual killing of Euphie as a mercy killing even (because she became the antithesis of all that she wanted to be) Lelouch does feel guilt over it vs. Lelouch doesn't seem to show a jot of guilt over murdering Clovis.

I think by the last episode Suzaku is not going to believe Lelouch anymore. I don't think he could have explained at that point and a part of me thinks he is also that Lelouch refuses to show weakness. He doesn't want Suzaku (and Kallen) to know he could make a mistake. That this was not all some huge plot he had all figured out.

I think Suzaku, even when he was a kid was a relatively nice person. Was he rude when Lelouch and Nannally first came to live with him, yes, but I think most 10 years would be a little resentful to suddenly have some strange prince and princess coming into their lives like that. It's clear that before the invasion, Lelouch and Suzaku had become friends, they had a secret meet me on the roof signal, and Suzaku helps Lelouch up the hill and won't leave him behind.

I admit, I get sick of people harping on what a "hypocrite" Suzaku is particularly in regards to the murder of his father. He's 10 years old, they were fighting and it was an accident. ~~Except in that one version of it where he murders his father because his father plans to murder his two best friends~~ This is not a premeditated murder, this wasn't even an intentional murder and he is 10. ~.~ Suzaku's not a hypocrite, he's just not a single note character and is in fact a bundle of contradictions. Suzaku has intense guilt, because whether it was an accident or not he killed his father and maybe if he hadn't Japan would not be subjugated as it now is. Unlike Lelouch (who one could argue just as easily is a hypocrite) he does actually care about the Japanese people. I think that one flashback where we see the two boys walking through the field of dead Japanese is very telling, both about the guilt Suzaku feels and what has made him the person he is in Geass.

Personally, if people want to find another character in a series to compare Suzaku to, the character he is MOST like to me is Sumeragi Subaru.

I don't think he could have explained at that point and a part of me thinks he is also that Lelouch refuses to show weakness.

Ah right, the pride issue. You're right there.

He's 10 years old, they were fighting and it was an accident.

Hmmm, not really. I think that Suzaku really put in a deep thought about it and tried arguing with his father several times. He then understood that he was too stubborn (bad genes...) and that killing him might be an option. I never got to watch the last picture drama with subs, but I think that Suzaku wanted to ask Lelouch about that BEFORE that last confrontation with his father. I don't think it was an impulsive reaction of say, grabbing a near knife and killing him... I think that, just like with Lelouch on ep 25, Suzaku tried to argue with his father but he was hiding a weapon because deep in his heart he knew what he had to do to change the way things were going. It was premeditated, I really believe that. Those said contradictions are what make of him a hypocrite (please note that I REALLY like him, he's my second fav character). But it's just like

spaleween said, Suzaku acts all suicide, noble and all of that because his really own reasons are the most selfish. Not only because of his father's death... In fact, by that time that sole action... Wasn't it selfish at all? And what's he's doing with Lelouch, isn't it the same? He's imposing his own will into others and if they don't accept it he'll just snap them. Because it makes it easier for him - he can't accept them. It's not because of Japan... Because if that's it, then he would've let his father alive in the first place. Lelouch is also doing that, obviously, but he doesn't really hide it. Of course he can't just reveal that to the world, his Zero mask is only a mean to reach his purpose but he knows what he really wants. Suzaku only imposes his selfish desires but he's not really aware of it... and when his mind realizes it, your icon will occur. Moral victories, much? It's well, difficult, really. I call it hypocrisy (and it might apply to both Suzaku and Lelouch, that's why I find their fight USELESS) but in Suzaku's case, it's also a serious low-esteem issue.

I also think there's something "Shinji"-ish on Suzaku, but as opposed to this idiot he actually tries to DO something about it.

I'm not sure when the flashback with the field and Lelouch and Suzaku surrounded by all the dead Japanese (with Nunnallyon Lelouch's back) comes into play vs. the fight that leads to Suzaku's father's death, but depending on the order I suspect that also plays a HUGE role in Suzaku's thinking.

Even if it is premeditated, which to me nothing has been shown to prove it was. ~~Except in the one version of events where he does it to save Nunnally and Lelouch.~~ In the actual flashback imagery the viewer sees it certainly looks like a bad decision made in the heat of the moment when Suzaku is no more than 10. (I'd also like to note his father actually loses his temper and gets violent first and shoves/slaps Suzaku away) Even now at 17 on the best of days I would argue (despite my love of Suzaku who is my favorite character) he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Can you really tell me you think a 10 year is completely capable of pre-meditated murder and completely thinking through the consequences?? Because I admit, I don't think most 10 year olds are. I believe the law in most countries also doesn't think they are.

I don't think it is hypocritical to want to be a better person than you are, which is what Suzaku is doing. Suzaku acts all noble because that is the person he wants to be. I don't think he wants to be suicidal so much as he is. His very selfish reasons are to assuage his guilt which I think to him makes it impossible for him to actually be noble. He has horrible low self-esteem which is one reason why I think Euphie's love is so important to him. To me it's not a romantic love at all, it's a more motherly love which gives value to him. I think Suzaku sincerely does care about Japan. I think to him somehow his death, particularly if it is heroic will prove to everyone how great the Japanese are and make up for his one big mistake at 10.

I do think Suzaku truly believes the only way to change things are from the inside. And I would argue that if Lelouch/Zero had not geassed Euphie when he did, Suzaku would have been right.

The problem here is not that decision he made when he was 10. The problem is that even NOW he thinks that way. You see, if he'd been say, 16/17 years old at that time he would've done the same. He REALLY doesn't regret killing his father, he'll ague until his very end that he HAD to die. At the time it could've been just like you say - a really bad decision for a kid to make - but, now? And he goes berserk when that issue is mentioned because he wants to think that he made it for Japan, when in fact he made it for himself. Because (again, sorry) it's easier that way. In some way, I think he acts just like Lelouch says: he just lowers his head. Not to be an example so that Honorary Britannians won't suffer the consequences, but because it's easier that way. He really wants to believe it the other way, and when confronted with the truth he'll go berserk. At some point this could be called hypocrisy, but can also be some other problem...

Also, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a better person. But he argues as if he is one, as if he's the sole savior of the truth when in fact, he's just a selfish kid who does the right decisions for the wrong reasons - this is surely hypocrisy, no?

Btw about your icon.... XD;

Ironically I made it before Gaara actually had lol I just saw the chibi on some merchandise and that was the first thing I thought XD;

I'd argue that he really doesn't have a choice but to argue he had to do it, but his emotions speak louder than words. It's sort of like Lelouch in killing Euphie, he can't admit it was a mistake because that makes everything so much worse. I think it's obvious from the guilt he is carrying that he does think it was a mistake and from the fact that he so hides that he did it. If he really thought it was necessary he wouldn't be wracked by guilt and wouldn't hide it so much. Again this is ignoring the version where it was for Lelouch and Nunnally. (In which case I would argue the guilt is over his father being willing to betray his friends rather than the murder itself) I think to Suzaku in trying to claim it was a decision that had to be made he is trying to be responsible and accept a mistake he made that can not be changed. Yes, he is lying to himself, but I think it's a self-preservation lie and goes along with why he is happy to sacrifice himself. I think Suzaku firmly believes he does not deserve to live. I don't see it as hypocritical.

I guess I don't see him as taking the easy way out ever. And I think Lelouch's statements about things must be taken with a grain of salt since he is trying to self-justify his own choices which are also not real winners. I think it bothers Lelouch to see Suzaku just passively take the abuse doled out on him. The only easy way out I've seen Suzaku try to take is suicide, which Lelouch has now foreclosed to him.

Actually, I don't feel like he argues like that, I feel instead he argues as someone who is trying to do the right thing vs someone who is not trying at all, like Zero. As Lelouch tells CC he was just biding his time waiting for something to allow him to seek his revenge, CC is just the lucky coincidence that has come into his life. Suzaku to me doesn't seem either hypocritical or like he believes he is the sole savior of truth. Now if you want to argue with me over whether Kira Yamato sees himself as the sole savior of truth and justice and the freedom way, that's a completely different story. I think you're giving Suzaku beliefs he doesn't actually have.

And again, I think he snaps in 25 not because he is a spoiled child who didn't get his way but because he has lost everything. Lelouch has completely betrayed his trust as state above much better by

sapphira_angel, he's lost Euphie who to me was a mother figure for him, giving him unconditional love. And now Lelouch is giving more excuses and claiming he needs help rescuing Nannally? From Suzaku's POV Lelouch is the ultimate in selfish. He ruined things for the Japanese and betrayed everyone just for revenge and his own sense of glory. Because really, do you think V.V. told Suzaku it was an accident with Euphie and why would Suzaku believe Lelouch now after everything Lelouch has done?

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At least in my subs of Picture Drama 23.95, Suzaku says, "I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. I know. I knew full well." If this isn't premeditation, I don't know what is. I would believe that Suzaku wanted his father to come over to his side, but I don't think that one can argue that he had purposefully steeled himself to kill his father...if necessary. It certainly is not a decision made in the heat of the moment.

I sorta oppose calling his killing of his father a "mistake". I mean, yes, it was murder, and yes, it weighs heavily on his conscience. I think that the powers of hindsight will make his action a vital one in ensuring that Japan has the strength to fight back and win its independence. As Lelouch said, if Suzaku hadn't killed his father, the nation would have exhausted itself and permanently lost its ability to rise up. As it stands, the nation is unbroken--its people are spirited and indignant, and its military-industrial complex is unscathed. This is not to say that Genbu's murder was justified, though. I'm simply saying that nothing in this series is particularly "wrong". Everything is a shade of gray, and eventuality simply lurches from one event to the next. Maybe Japan will even (eventually) come to recognize how Genbu's death preserved them.

As for his and Euphie's relationship, I wouldn't exactly call it motherly love. However, it is a very, very pure love. Hell, I see more lust in his relationship with Lelouch than in his relationship with Euphie. Their love for each other is the very epitome of a knight-champion and his lady. And of course, this highly romanticized relationship could not survive the reality of the present circumstances. I don't think that Suzaku could have effected real change from within (at least, not within a reasonable time). Prior to Zero, he was one deluded, suicidal man with no opportunity for advancement. He may envision himself a martyr, but a martyr who goes out unknown is nothing but a statistic.

Suzaku sincerely does care about Japan.

IAWTC x10000. Many people think that he snapped and wants to destroy Zero and Japan and that's that. I would disagree with them. He's a guy with good intentions trapped by an overwhelming sense of guilt and no way to change his present circumstances. Ultimately, I think he's a good guy, and no matter how misguided his actions are, and no matter how selfishly he's putting on the "good guy" facade, there is a proud Japanese deep within his heart. I have no doubt that he is Japanese and that he would fight for Japan--whatever that means to him.

As for me, I'm eagerly awaiting him to bust out again in a fit of passion/rage/indignation, "Kururugi Suzaku is a son of Japan! I'll help the ones I want to help and do the things I want to do! Why should I need a reason to do any of those!?" (Sound episode 2, track 4) (http://galvea.livejournal.com/944.html#cutid1)

I saw the translation as "What you (e.g. Lelouch) wanted to do was kill your father. And it may be a mistake after all. . . I understand. Only I can understand." Which changes the meaning quite a bit. For one, it takes away the premeditative element—Suzaku understands that it was a mistake now, but didn't necessarily when he committed the act. Personally, I see his reaction—the extreme depression and self-hatred, that is—of being a sign that he did not plan the murder. He's always been an impulsive person, and he always will be; I see it more as a ten-year old's thought process that "if Father is dead, the war will stop. . . and no one else will die." The fact that it turned out so very differently than what he expected added to the guilt. The "only I can understand" is paralleling is later behavior where he has to stick to solid ideals and follow them or he risks losing himself completely. However, the alternate translation also reinforces that Lelouch represents a number of things that Suzaku hates in himself. The blind, selfish desire for violence especially. Hence the attempt to off Lelouch later on: eliminating those elements which he seeks to destroy in himself.

However, I admit have next to no knowledge of Japanese! So I can't say which translation is more accurate, and I'm curious. DISCLAIMER I am also half conscious. Sense not make.

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Some mighty big claims you got there

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

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QFT

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