Two cents

[spaleween.livejournal.com]

First off, I like this anime because it involves war, political intrigue, friendship, and betrayal. Then I was miffed at the stereotypical characters--bad protagonist, heroic antagonist/best friend/greatest enemy, sexy and mysterious girl with mystical powers, helpless sister, megalomaniac king.

And then, as other LJ people have mentioned, they're not stereotypical after all. They're not completely good/bad people...most of them anyway.

There were two things I hated: (1) the Pizza Hut product placement, but this has already been beaten and murdered in other posts so I won't do it, and (2) the god-awful deus ex machina.

There were plenty of deus ex machina in Code Geass (read: V.V.), but what annoyed me most was when Euphie dropped out of nowhere and into Suzaku's arms. Somebody explain to me why a princess would drop out of nowhere? Ah, *forehead smack* convenient plot device...of course.

Many people don't like Euphie because she's a Lacus clone. I initially agree. But when she became a killing doll, I liked it. She became one of Lelouch's many accidental pawns in that last-8-minute chess game of his. This confirms Euphie's purpose in the series: convenient momental plot device.

Now Nina. Everyone is creeped out. But I like it that there's a one-sided-stalker-worship-dirty-love going on with Nina. She never really had anyone care for her before, and here comes this radiant glowing princess that values Nina's life so much that she's willing to exchange her life for hers. Nina is so awestruck because no one ever does this for her before that she entrusts her never-ending and never-wavering loyalty and devotion to her. Someone actually treasured her, in Nina's view. So the girl who was never appreciated before becomes obssessed with the radiant princess because she's afraid no one would appreciate her life again. I kinda understand it.

Suzaku. Agree with the initial Kira-clone impression. Agree with the later omg-he's-actually-two-dimensional-because-of-that-patricide impression. I truly appreciate characters who are not one-dimensional. I don't like perfect characters. I like it that he's a contradictory character. I like it that he's trying to convince himself of doing the right thing, justifying himself of his father's murder. He's haunted by all the bad things he did, but he still weaves the illusion onto himself that "this is for the good". He has a mask, just like Lelouch's Zero, but Suzaku's mask is harder to remove as it's from childhood. I agree that he keeps repressing all that emotion. Once, he managed to let a bit out in front of Lelouch, but that's just a bit. His guilt is slowly eating him and he doesn't notice it. Euphie was, once again--convenient plot device--, the trigger to release all that pent-up emotion since childhood. He doesn't care anymore. He doesn't care that Nunnally is in danger. He doesn't care that Japan is in complete chaos. He doesn't care that Lelouch is his best friend. He doesn't care. All he cares about is killing this guy, riddle him with bullets and make sure he's DEAD.

I haven't read Suzaku of the Counterattack, you see.
A favor? Would anyone mind doing a character sketch of Suzaku? I really want to understand him more.

Comments

[volfield.livejournal.com]

I don't think he could have explained at that point and a part of me thinks he is also that Lelouch refuses to show weakness.

Ah right, the pride issue. You're right there.

He's 10 years old, they were fighting and it was an accident.

Hmmm, not really. I think that Suzaku really put in a deep thought about it and tried arguing with his father several times. He then understood that he was too stubborn (bad genes...) and that killing him might be an option. I never got to watch the last picture drama with subs, but I think that Suzaku wanted to ask Lelouch about that BEFORE that last confrontation with his father. I don't think it was an impulsive reaction of say, grabbing a near knife and killing him... I think that, just like with Lelouch on ep 25, Suzaku tried to argue with his father but he was hiding a weapon because deep in his heart he knew what he had to do to change the way things were going. It was premeditated, I really believe that. Those said contradictions are what make of him a hypocrite (please note that I REALLY like him, he's my second fav character). But it's just like spaleween said, Suzaku acts all suicide, noble and all of that because his really own reasons are the most selfish. Not only because of his father's death... In fact, by that time that sole action... Wasn't it selfish at all? And what's he's doing with Lelouch, isn't it the same? He's imposing his own will into others and if they don't accept it he'll just snap them. Because it makes it easier for him - he can't accept them. It's not because of Japan... Because if that's it, then he would've let his father alive in the first place. Lelouch is also doing that, obviously, but he doesn't really hide it. Of course he can't just reveal that to the world, his Zero mask is only a mean to reach his purpose but he knows what he really wants. Suzaku only imposes his selfish desires but he's not really aware of it... and when his mind realizes it, your icon will occur. Moral victories, much? It's well, difficult, really. I call it hypocrisy (and it might apply to both Suzaku and Lelouch, that's why I find their fight USELESS) but in Suzaku's case, it's also a serious low-esteem issue.

I also think there's something "Shinji"-ish on Suzaku, but as opposed to this idiot he actually tries to DO something about it.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure when the flashback with the field and Lelouch and Suzaku surrounded by all the dead Japanese (with Nunnallyon Lelouch's back) comes into play vs. the fight that leads to Suzaku's father's death, but depending on the order I suspect that also plays a HUGE role in Suzaku's thinking.

Even if it is premeditated, which to me nothing has been shown to prove it was. Except in the one version of events where he does it to save Nunnally and Lelouch. In the actual flashback imagery the viewer sees it certainly looks like a bad decision made in the heat of the moment when Suzaku is no more than 10. (I'd also like to note his father actually loses his temper and gets violent first and shoves/slaps Suzaku away) Even now at 17 on the best of days I would argue (despite my love of Suzaku who is my favorite character) he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Can you really tell me you think a 10 year is completely capable of pre-meditated murder and completely thinking through the consequences?? Because I admit, I don't think most 10 year olds are. I believe the law in most countries also doesn't think they are.

I don't think it is hypocritical to want to be a better person than you are, which is what Suzaku is doing. Suzaku acts all noble because that is the person he wants to be. I don't think he wants to be suicidal so much as he is. His very selfish reasons are to assuage his guilt which I think to him makes it impossible for him to actually be noble. He has horrible low self-esteem which is one reason why I think Euphie's love is so important to him. To me it's not a romantic love at all, it's a more motherly love which gives value to him. I think Suzaku sincerely does care about Japan. I think to him somehow his death, particularly if it is heroic will prove to everyone how great the Japanese are and make up for his one big mistake at 10.

I do think Suzaku truly believes the only way to change things are from the inside. And I would argue that if Lelouch/Zero had not geassed Euphie when he did, Suzaku would have been right.

[volfield.livejournal.com]

The problem here is not that decision he made when he was 10. The problem is that even NOW he thinks that way. You see, if he'd been say, 16/17 years old at that time he would've done the same. He REALLY doesn't regret killing his father, he'll ague until his very end that he HAD to die. At the time it could've been just like you say - a really bad decision for a kid to make - but, now? And he goes berserk when that issue is mentioned because he wants to think that he made it for Japan, when in fact he made it for himself. Because (again, sorry) it's easier that way. In some way, I think he acts just like Lelouch says: he just lowers his head. Not to be an example so that Honorary Britannians won't suffer the consequences, but because it's easier that way. He really wants to believe it the other way, and when confronted with the truth he'll go berserk. At some point this could be called hypocrisy, but can also be some other problem...

Also, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a better person. But he argues as if he is one, as if he's the sole savior of the truth when in fact, he's just a selfish kid who does the right decisions for the wrong reasons - this is surely hypocrisy, no?


Btw about your icon.... XD;

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Ironically I made it before Gaara actually had lol I just saw the chibi on some merchandise and that was the first thing I thought XD;

I'd argue that he really doesn't have a choice but to argue he had to do it, but his emotions speak louder than words. It's sort of like Lelouch in killing Euphie, he can't admit it was a mistake because that makes everything so much worse. I think it's obvious from the guilt he is carrying that he does think it was a mistake and from the fact that he so hides that he did it. If he really thought it was necessary he wouldn't be wracked by guilt and wouldn't hide it so much. Again this is ignoring the version where it was for Lelouch and Nunnally. (In which case I would argue the guilt is over his father being willing to betray his friends rather than the murder itself) I think to Suzaku in trying to claim it was a decision that had to be made he is trying to be responsible and accept a mistake he made that can not be changed. Yes, he is lying to himself, but I think it's a self-preservation lie and goes along with why he is happy to sacrifice himself. I think Suzaku firmly believes he does not deserve to live. I don't see it as hypocritical.

I guess I don't see him as taking the easy way out ever. And I think Lelouch's statements about things must be taken with a grain of salt since he is trying to self-justify his own choices which are also not real winners. I think it bothers Lelouch to see Suzaku just passively take the abuse doled out on him. The only easy way out I've seen Suzaku try to take is suicide, which Lelouch has now foreclosed to him.

Actually, I don't feel like he argues like that, I feel instead he argues as someone who is trying to do the right thing vs someone who is not trying at all, like Zero. As Lelouch tells CC he was just biding his time waiting for something to allow him to seek his revenge, CC is just the lucky coincidence that has come into his life. Suzaku to me doesn't seem either hypocritical or like he believes he is the sole savior of truth. Now if you want to argue with me over whether Kira Yamato sees himself as the sole savior of truth and justice and the freedom way, that's a completely different story. I think you're giving Suzaku beliefs he doesn't actually have.

And again, I think he snaps in 25 not because he is a spoiled child who didn't get his way but because he has lost everything. Lelouch has completely betrayed his trust as state above much better by sapphira_angel, he's lost Euphie who to me was a mother figure for him, giving him unconditional love. And now Lelouch is giving more excuses and claiming he needs help rescuing Nannally? From Suzaku's POV Lelouch is the ultimate in selfish. He ruined things for the Japanese and betrayed everyone just for revenge and his own sense of glory. Because really, do you think V.V. told Suzaku it was an accident with Euphie and why would Suzaku believe Lelouch now after everything Lelouch has done?

[volfield.livejournal.com]

@___@;;....

Well, I think we obviously have different POVs, huh XD;

This can be really deep since they only give us some inside of Lelouch's thoughts but as to Suzaku, we can only guess by his actions. It's something like the orange thing. Only a word, the people just did the rest on spreading it like it was something else. As to me, I still think when Suzaku voices his ideals, he sounds rather hypocrite.

Following rainbow_cnxn's line of thought, I really think his father's murder does weight on his conscience, but only because he killed a person of his own blood - his father. Other than that, I really think he doesn't regret it.


About the rest, well... Different opinions, really! I don't know what else to say anymore... It really feels like I'm Lelouch's attorney and you're Suzaku's XD;


(Now that'd be funny...)


edit: oh right, where did you read/saw that other version for Suzaku's father murder?

[rkold.livejournal.com]

I can't remember where it was now. ~.~ It was either in Newtype or maybe Suzaku of the Counterattack. I wish I could remember. However, I do remember there is a version where Suzaku specifically kills his father because his father is plotting to murder Lelouch and Nunnally. It know this version was shared a long time ago. ^_^;;;

I do think we just have completely different takes, but I guess my point is it's important to understand that not everyone sees Suzaku as a hypocrite and if you believe that it definitely colors your perspective on him, much like how my belief he is not colors mine.

And see to me, the death weighs on his conscience because he actually killed someone and I think he does regret it.

I do like Lelouch, but nowhere near as much as Suzaku. lol

So the question is who would be the judge lol

[sapphynashi.livejournal.com]

I think you're referring to the Stage 0 novel (http://verity-isle.livejournal.com/tag/stage+0), which is sort of questionable in regards to canon. It has some nice other details and parallels between Lelouch and Suzaku though.

[volfield.livejournal.com]

Ohh, thank you! Indeed, I remember seeing scans from that but never got to see the translation.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I knew there was something where there is a version of Genbu's death where Suzaku did it for Lelouch and Nunnally!

It gets very confusing as to what is canon and what is not.

[volfield.livejournal.com]

Now I'm picturing C.C. as the judge and they both get arrested XD;;;;


Hmmm, maybe it was on Suzaku of the Counterattack? I only have one chapter of that, I might search for it later.


Oh, you're right in there. But well, I think that most people really hate him because of that. That's certainly not my case. At first I really didn't care much about him, because he really seemed a little bit... "Jesus" to me. Always saving people, being the hero, etc. But as soon as his past is revealed on Mao's arc, my interest for him grew significantly. I'm a sucker for characters like him and Lelouch, and I even like his wallrunning skills. I do think he acts a little off sometimes, hypocrite and such... I also think in my mind he's somewhat different than in yours, but overall I think he's a really nice kid. In fact, every one on that series IS a good person. There are no *evil* or *bad* ones. They honestly fight for what they believe and hell, I can't pick a side. To tell you the truth, I'd rather chose both Lelouch and Suzaku to live or die, because if only one of them dies it'd be extremely unfair.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

CC is biased towards Lelouch XD; I vote Euphie she loves them both :P

And see for me Lelouch sometimes seems too much like Raito and unbelievable in his insane and complicated plans and gets on my nerves. I like him but I don't really get all the fangirl adoration of him where he can do no wrong. To me, he's really selfish and only really cares about a few very select people and is happy to use everyone else.

I think there are some people who do more evil things than others. No matter how gay and flouncy Clovis might have been, or how much Euphie liked him, he did order the liquidation of the Shinjuku ghetto. And the captain who Lelouch first uses his geass on is much more on the dark side of things as well.

I think the fact that Suzaku is so flawed and has been from the start and it has been a part of the story that he is flawed, keeps me from ever seeing him as Jesus-like. I don't think he is a hypocrite and it is just a word that happens to really get my goat. lol

I think we just come down on different takes on the characters XD;

[volfield.livejournal.com]

XD;

Euphie: Etto.... (´・ω・｀)


Hmm, I think the fangirlism over Lelouch is mainly because he's a total bishie. As for me, I really like his way of thinking and all those things you mentioned XD; You see, I somewhat like riddles, puzzles and chess, so it's not difficult for me to fall for Lelouch. I love his way of thought, the "just as planned" and all that... Surprising enough, I also like it when Suzaku messes up with his plans... I'm always curious to know what he'll make up to get away with it. I guess this is why our opinions vary a lot!

Oh yes, about the evil and good. You know, I really think it has nothing to do with that. From Clovis POV, if C.C. project was leaked out, his head will roll. You can't really blame him from wanting to save his skin. As a child of the emperor, he was raised the way that man thinks (inequality) so he doesn't have any regret on using people's lives, mainly the Japanese. Safe for the emperor, all the characters behave accordingly to what they believe, they don't have this *evil* aura that makes them do things. Even Lelouch, he doesn't take much pleasure in killing people around. In fact, he has some issues regarding that. The only questionable character is in fact the emperor.

Oh yes, I liked that word - flawed. That's what reminds me about Shinji on him... But when you really look at it, Suzaku is in constant denial and WANTS to change. He really wants to take action towards himself.

Some mighty big claims you got there

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

At least in my subs of Picture Drama 23.95, Suzaku says, "I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. I know. I knew full well." If this isn't premeditation, I don't know what is. I would believe that Suzaku wanted his father to come over to his side, but I don't think that one can argue that he had purposefully steeled himself to kill his father...if necessary. It certainly is not a decision made in the heat of the moment.

I sorta oppose calling his killing of his father a "mistake". I mean, yes, it was murder, and yes, it weighs heavily on his conscience. I think that the powers of hindsight will make his action a vital one in ensuring that Japan has the strength to fight back and win its independence. As Lelouch said, if Suzaku hadn't killed his father, the nation would have exhausted itself and permanently lost its ability to rise up. As it stands, the nation is unbroken--its people are spirited and indignant, and its military-industrial complex is unscathed. This is not to say that Genbu's murder was justified, though. I'm simply saying that nothing in this series is particularly "wrong". Everything is a shade of gray, and eventuality simply lurches from one event to the next. Maybe Japan will even (eventually) come to recognize how Genbu's death preserved them.

As for his and Euphie's relationship, I wouldn't exactly call it motherly love. However, it is a very, very pure love. Hell, I see more lust in his relationship with Lelouch than in his relationship with Euphie. Their love for each other is the very epitome of a knight-champion and his lady. And of course, this highly romanticized relationship could not survive the reality of the present circumstances. I don't think that Suzaku could have effected real change from within (at least, not within a reasonable time). Prior to Zero, he was one deluded, suicidal man with no opportunity for advancement. He may envision himself a martyr, but a martyr who goes out unknown is nothing but a statistic.

Suzaku sincerely does care about Japan.

IAWTC x10000. Many people think that he snapped and wants to destroy Zero and Japan and that's that. I would disagree with them. He's a guy with good intentions trapped by an overwhelming sense of guilt and no way to change his present circumstances. Ultimately, I think he's a good guy, and no matter how misguided his actions are, and no matter how selfishly he's putting on the "good guy" facade, there is a proud Japanese deep within his heart. I have no doubt that he is Japanese and that he would fight for Japan--whatever that means to him.

As for me, I'm eagerly awaiting him to bust out again in a fit of passion/rage/indignation, "Kururugi Suzaku is a son of Japan! I'll help the ones I want to help and do the things I want to do! Why should I need a reason to do any of those!?" (Sound episode 2, track 4) (http://galvea.livejournal.com/944.html#cutid1)

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

I saw the translation as "What you (e.g. Lelouch) wanted to do was kill your father. And it may be a mistake after all. . . I understand. Only I can understand." Which changes the meaning quite a bit. For one, it takes away the premeditative element—Suzaku understands that it was a mistake now, but didn't necessarily when he committed the act. Personally, I see his reaction—the extreme depression and self-hatred, that is—of being a sign that he did not plan the murder. He's always been an impulsive person, and he always will be; I see it more as a ten-year old's thought process that "if Father is dead, the war will stop. . . and no one else will die." The fact that it turned out so very differently than what he expected added to the guilt. The "only I can understand" is paralleling is later behavior where he has to stick to solid ideals and follow them or he risks losing himself completely. However, the alternate translation also reinforces that Lelouch represents a number of things that Suzaku hates in himself. The blind, selfish desire for violence especially. Hence the attempt to off Lelouch later on: eliminating those elements which he seeks to destroy in himself.

However, I admit have next to no knowledge of Japanese! So I can't say which translation is more accurate, and I'm curious. DISCLAIMER I am also half conscious. Sense not make.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Ohhhh really good points! *___*

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

I admit myself to not know an inkling of Japanese! I was rather befuddled by this Picture Drama, as it confused me regarding the chronology of Genbu's murder. If some Japanese speaker can come clarify this for us, it'd be much appreciated!

And I agree that if your subs are more accurate, it does take away the premeditative element, and I would agree wholly with your assessment of the situation.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

I thiiiink it goes Sound File 0.543/the very beginning of episode one --> that flashback in episode 16 with the dead bodies --> the murder --> the last Picture Drama. But it is kind of unclear.

♥!

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rkold.livejournal.com]

I love my picture CDs when my hard drive died and the torrents no longer are working. If anyone wants to give them to me I have a few friends who are fluent in Japanese who I could possibly beg a translation out of.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

Uho! If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to upload.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That should be lost, I can't type >>; My hard drive died and I lost like 9 months of data ;;_;;

I'm going to ask my friend who is fluent and is not a Geass a fan so she won't have any biases towards the characters/perspectives.

I do agree with you, I think the amount of guilt Suzaku is carrying around makes me think it is something he regrets immensely.

Lelouch has no problem telling people he murdered Clovis and shows no guilt.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

[pat] This at least is easy to fix! d-defeat I accept thee, my upload would take too long. And excellent!

Mm! Although I do wonder why he was carrying around a knife in the first place. Unless that was just how he ~rolled~ in those days: which is possible, considering the dangers of being the Prime Minister's son.

Hummmm. Lelouch guilts in his own way—he vomits at the thought of the murder—but unlike Suzaku, he doesn't feel the need to deny the murder. It happened, he can't change it, and it's very real. More than that, it's a sign of the influence he was beginning to gain as a leader. Less with Clovis's death and more with Euphie's death, he purposely hides his guilt in public in order to achieve the more impersonal, ruthless persona that he requires to continue leading the rebellion and living as Zero. Same with inciting Suzaku in the cave during the finale by talking to him about Euphie: assuming an impersonal stance to distance himself from others. Whereas in private during episode 23, Lelouch is visibly extremely guilty about what occurred with Euphie and cries. To him, strength is not letting anything else influence him, keeping everything at arm's length and holding nothing so precious that it could harm him more deeply than he wishes to show. It's the same concept as Suzaku;s search for atonement through trying to become what he feels is a good person and eliminating that which he feels is wrong in himself. So one suppresses selflessness, one suppresses selfishness.

. . . I love the boys. I really do. ♥

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

It's uploading right now. Give me *checks* 8.5 minutes. :D

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That should be lost I can't type. My hard drive died and I lost like 9 months of data ;;_;; It's been a most unfun situation.

I'm going to ask my friend who is fluent and is not a Geass a fan so she won't have any biases towards the characters/perspectives.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

And HELL YES I want another patriotic outburst in S2 too. ♥ Totally agreed there.

Re: Some mighty big claims you got there

[rkold.livejournal.com]

I've not actually been following all the Drama CDs because I'm never sure how much of them is canon and how much is not since there is already that one version where Suzaku murders his father because he thinks his father plans to murder Lelouch and Nunnally. So for now, I am just going by the anime itself.

However even if a 17 year old Suzaku canonically looking back thinks he went into the argument contemplating patricide, he was still 10 at the time and I just don't feel like a 10 year old has the mental faculties to think through this choice.

I do agree that everything is shades of gray, but I think it is obvious from the amount of guilt he feels that Suzaku does not really think this was the right choice.

I see the love as more maternal because of her last request for Suzaku to stay in school and from the way she demands Suzaku love her and the unconditional love she gives to him. She is in effect trying to bolster his self-esteem. It also then makes a lovely mirror and counterpoint to Marianne's death when Lelouch was a child.

What is a reasonable amount of time to effect change? I think to Suzaku if more people felt like him, then things would be more likely to change and I think he felt one person could make a difference. And yes, I think he did envision himself as a martyr and he might have been deluded, but that's not the same as being a hyprocrite.

I would argue that until Lelouch kills Euphie he is not even necessarily working to destroy Zero. I mean he does work with Zero to fight the Chinese Federation backed terrorists (it is isn't it?) in that one episode. And after Euphie's death, well I think it's really hard to blame him for wanting to destroy Zero.

I think that "good guy" facade is a part of him and I don't think it's selfish to want to be that person. To me, his selfishness is in wanting to die and not thinking about what that means to others. It's the one example of him wanting to take the easy way out to me.

To me, Japan has always been an overriding presence in his life. One dumb illustration, is Geass opens with Suzaku helping Lelouch to a lookout so they can view Mt. Fuji, the symbol of Japan. I think it doesn't just illustrate their friendship and their innocence but also the importance of Japan to Suzaku.