code_geass | R2 Turn 13 Discusion: Karma

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R2 Turn 13 Discusion: Karma

Wow, it's harder to get back on that horse than I thought. But I figure this is as good an episode as any to give it a shot. Some people told me they wanted me to go back to these, but as always if I'm duplicating posts, feel free to smack me. I assume the rules are still remembered? Good.

Oh Rolo rolo rolo. Do we love you or love to hate you? I suppose it's a matter of what you're after in a character. But Geass has never given us a straight choice. I won't get into the did or didn't he do it? That's been taken care of. Instead, let's analyze what has happened to the boy over the course of the series. It's been established that the boy who has only ever knew an assassin's life latched onto the love/life Lelouch promised. He protected him from Suzaku in 5, tried to get him to go back to his Ashford life pre-R2 Turn 1 in 7, he helped Lelouch turn against Villetta, he became incredibly protect of Lelouch's reputation/way of life in 11 and he's so so jealous of the girls in 12 (yes, I know this is interpretation but COME ON did you see his expression at the end of 12?). Turn 13 opens with him as delighted, bouncy and proud to be around his brother as ever. It's important that Rolo never refers to Lelouch as Lelouch but always as "nii-san." "Lelouch" represents his old mission. The last time we see him use it is when he is still questioning where he sides. Rolo has made his decision now. He is Lelouch's all the way. Let's not forget how he outright hisses at Villetta for sending Jeremiah after Lelouch and when she calls him on his action, his response is "Are you trying to separate me from my nii-san?" Yeah... that is not sanity. And it's perfectly likely that it is this loyalty that could result in him killing one he poses as a threat.

Why doesn't Lelouch keep a better eye on the boy who in the past has shown willingness to kill without orders? Suzaku in 5. Nobody knows for sure. I am not sure if it would be unfair to say that Lelouch, himself, doesn't comprehend the depth of Rolo's loyalty. Lelouch has said he is just using Rolo. Whether this fact is still true is harder to rule on. I would say Rolo is still loyal to the cult above all else, but his taking on Jeremiah displays a certain argument to that theory. Taking on Jeremiah would reveal his defection. But maybe Rolo thought he could take out Jeremiah without that being an issue.

Villetta. Where does she stand? Did she lead Jeremiah into a trap because she doesn't want to reveal that she's been compromised? What about her continued interest in Ougi? Why does she question why Rolo turned? Does she want to understand Lelouch's appeal? And I use Lelouch and not Zero here on purpose. Each has their own appeal.

Hey! Why the hell isn't Shirley in this yet? Come to think of it, people haven't had all that much to say about her aside from "bawwww". That's a shame. Because Shirley OWNED this episode. Shirley took a while to grow on me; her role as the love interest is a tough one to push on a silly yaoi fangirl. But when I realized where Shirley's love for Lelouch came from, from wanting to know why he was the way he was and just plain understand him, I was intrigued. Shirley wanted to know Lelouch. That's all she ever wanted. Her part in 12, when she is so happy to have the real Lelouch back and not the playboy, I fell in love with her all over again. When she shot Villetta to protect Lelouch, even when she knew he was Zero, the man responsible for her father's death, in S1, was when I loved her most. I was so frustrated at how her character was virtually a plot device for the rest of the season. I know it is argued she still is in R2, but I don't care. Shirley is beautiful. Struggling to decide whether she should tell Suzaku that Lelouch is Zero, struggling to figure out who's lying to her and who's telling the truth and just what the hell is going on and struggling to understand how she truly feels.

Some have argued Shirley's decision to side with Lelouch comes too suddenly after her attempt to tell Suzaku about Zero. I counter this. Shirley lost her nerve the second she saw Suzaku. She was trying to act as she thought she should and pretty much decided she'd rather act with her heart. Because that is how Shirley is. As some also pointed out, Shirley could have told Lelouch who killed her before she died but chose to spend that precious time finally telling him she loved him. Again, thinking with her heart. Adding to this is the fact that Lelouch showed how much he cared about her when she almost fell off the roof, pleading with her to stay with him, that he didn't want to lose anyone else. I think Shirley knew then, she could never betray him. Then once she realized that Suzaku was no longer on Lelouch's side, she knew what she had to do. She had to give him someone who would stand by him, no matter what. Now, that is beautiful love. I don't care if it sounds cliche. It's still beautiful and powerful. Watching Shirley full come to terms with the battle Lelouch is in the midst of, with being ready to join him, despite how Britannia views Lelouch is simply amazing. And I contend that Shirley, in her final moments, showed us just the type of character that makes Geass what it is.

Jeremiah. Now I will say that I think the "I killed all these people just to ask you a question, Lelouch" routine is a bit... contrived. But I can forgive because I love Jeremiah. Not Orange-kun. Jeremiah. And I do know that Jeremiah has always hated himself for not being able to protect Marianne. I also noticed that once he got to the mall and de-geassed Lelouch's soldiers, he did not kill them. He could have, but he didn't. I assume the men Jeremiah took out at Ashford attacked him first. Just like Sayoko. Jeremiah may have just plain been driven. He may still have a bit of his crazies from the end of S1. They never did explain how he got rid of his crazies. People have also questioned whether Jeremiah's loyalty is sincere. In this case, I'm leaning toward yes more than a double-ruse, but we'll see. My bigger question is did Jeremiah geass Shirley on purpose or was he just canceling out the general area prior to his arrival? Does Jeremiah still care about Villetta? V.V. saved Jeremiah's life; how does he think he will be able to help Lelouch if V.V. retaliates for his betrayal? Also, does Lelouch really trust Jeremiah now or is he using him as well?

And finally the boys. Always the boys. I admit when their scene first started, I was plenty irksome. They were so casual, albeit grumpysauruses, and when they laughed together after saving Shirley, I was dying for some inner looks into their heads. I got it a second after I complained, with Suzaku snarling at himself for smiling around Euphie's killer. Obviously the reason he reacted to this instance and not any of the other times he's smiled and toyed around Lelouch this season is because he wasn't faking it and it was a natural reaction. That made me love it! I loved how he hated it. I loved how later Shirley figures out that he doesn't want to forgive Lelouch. Lelouch too had his grr Suzaku grr moments, but of course they weren't as epic. I think it's because as much as Lelouch is FURIOUS with Suzaku, he still understands that Suzaku can be depended on to protect those he cares about. Just as Lelouch knew, after he got over his ZOMG NUNNALLY MINE moment, Nunnally was safer with Suzaku by her side, something he's always wanted. Nunnally has her knight. And as he says in this episode, Shirley should be safe with Suzaku. Still, it's apparent the loss of the friendship gets to him as much as Suzaku.

I was actually amazed with how honest Suzaku was with Shirley, telling her that he used to like Lelouch. He completely dropped his act and questions he couldn't lie about, he simply didn't answer. Maybe Suzaku is simply tired of lying; maybe he could tell Shirley already knew. By the way, I adore that part where Shirley smacks Suzaku to distract him from going off on his LELOUCH YOU'RE ZERO track. It's just so cute, and you can tell how much Suzaku wants to prove his suspicions, but he just can't hurt his friends. Again, this is why the ZOMG SUZAKU KILLED SHIRLEY theory is so retarded. If Suzaku placed destroying Zero over everything else, he would have ditched Shirley. All she did was tease him about staying, and he does. Because he's her friend, and as messed up as Suzaku has gotten amid everything he's gone through, his friends still matter to him. Does this scene hint toward future reconciliation? Who knows? It's Geass. But I've heard theories of a redemption/forgiveness theme... I'll leave it at that.

Damn, I almost forgot to put in here the awesome ending scene. I just about teared up when Lelouch tried to geass her to live. Lelouch, all that power, and he still can't protect those he cares about. It's just so heart-breaking to watch him lose someone else he cares about, and he knows it's his fault. He knows he brought her into this, despite doing everything in his power to keep her away from him. As others have said, it's Euphie all over again for him. He screwed up, and now he knows the true dangers of his double life, something he held onto exclusively for the sake of Ashford. Karma just won't allow people close to Lelouch to stay safe.

The Geass cult breaks my brain, and I leave that to saner minds or I will get lost in my "Cornelia is so hot" mode. Um... so about them gods?

Oh and real quick OP notes:
-golden geass?
-schneizel? a bigger role in the works?
-where is suzaku during the montage? cecile and lloyd are there.
-what is with the parallelism of the Guren and the Lancelot? rivals? pairing?
-I love the ending sequence with Lelouch, Charles and Schneizel
-WHY THE HELL IS THIS MUSIC SO PERKY?
-i take this moment to quietly fangirl about the SuzaLulu picture in the ED nobody will notice if i put it here sssh.

I would also go yay maid but everyone and their dog loves the maid and /a/ will give her all the attention she needs. Go forth and prosper.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

-WHY THE HELL IS THIS MUSIC SO PERKY?
Because in the end a deus-ex-machina will cure their hearts of hatred, like a god--

o wait.

-what is with the parallelism of the Guren and the Lancelot? rivals? pairing?

HO SNAP I WISH.
...No, not even I'm that deluded ~_~

What are you talking about? Lancelot/Guren is my OTP. So much hotter than Lancelot/Gawain ever were. And now they have aerial talents. Mmm.

Well done with Rolo! XD I will not even try to poke at your analysis.

I do think Villetta sent Jeremiah away in order to protect herself and Ougi. For some reason, those two objectives became one in her head. Plus, there was no way she would betray Lelouch in front of Rolo. She knows very well what Rolo is capable of.

I attribute Lelouch not keeping a better eye on him to Lelouch’s own arrogance. He sincerely thinks Rolo is under control. I remember Lelouch being shocked at the idea of Ougi lying to him. My theory is that, once people become their allies, he – somehow- ends up counting on said loyalty – that actually, might be the way some of Lelouch’s strongest relationships are established: with alliances. And he is right, after all. Rolo is loyal to him, but maybe in a more psychotic way than he had expected. Maybe because Lelouch himself seems to be able to make sacrifices that Rolo is incapable of (ie. let the person he loves go) – that is, if we assume Rolo killed Shirley. If that’s true, than the fact that Rolo told Lelouch to give up on Nunnally for her own good is deliciously contradictory, touching and ironic.

I completely agree with you on Shirley. And I don’t think she has ever been a plot device. I still believe she was a character on her own and she stood for herself. And that the story would have had a completely different taste if it was not for her. But then again, I do believe Euphemia is a strong character too, even if the pink hair is a bit misleading. And yes, Shirley’s love for Lelouch is a beautiful, creepy, insane thing, even if a bit old fashioned. Contrary to the usual perception, I don’t think she was there to relate to Lelouch and nothing else. She does relate to other characters in a far more discreet way, but it is there and it is relevant, and her love for Lelouch raises very interesting questions about her own perceptions of the world, her ideals and herself. I think her teenage love, maturing in something more unique, is far more a point of reverence to her characterization than the other way around. And yes, Shirley is beautiful and very much a CG character in her final moments.

My bigger question is did Jeremiah geass Shirley on purpose or was he just canceling out the general area prior to his arrival? Does Jeremiah still care about Villetta? V.V. saved Jeremiah's life; how does he think he will be able to help Lelouch if V.V. retaliates for his betrayal? Also, does Lelouch really trust Jeremiah now or is he using him as well?

No, I don’t think it was on purpose/ Yes, he does care/ Damn, I have no idea/ And he totally trusts him, because you know, MARIANNE. XD

I just need to add I don’t think the Jeremiah plot was contrieved, but we already talked about that and this reply is epic as it is. XD I also need to squee at the fact that Jeremiah is the first character who ever calls him your Majesty. It seems that Jeremiah, silly Britannian that he is, is one of the characters that was able to read Lelouch’s intentions more deeply.

I love the fact that Lelouch succeeds so easily where Gino fails so much: at making Suzaku smile. It’s like they can’t break from the bad habit of being friends. I love that scene. I also love the look Lelouch gives him when he stops smiling, as if he knew exactly what was going on in Suzaku’s head and couldn’t blame me...much.

About Suzaku dropping her act around Shirley: I love that conversation, and the previous one, because this episode has Shirley vibes all over the place. The characters are speaking with their emotions. Most facts, most perceptions, are felt even if unsaid, and that’s the kind of communication they are having at that point. Body language and looks: when Shirley tells him “I like Lulu. Don’t you like him, Suzaku?”, Suzaku immediately realizes what she means and he can’t be nothing but sincere. It’s really awesome.

And yes to all, especially how awesome Clamp is. I was embarrassingly happy with the last pic. XD

Okay, that was way too huge. I missed your entries so much. Thank you for coming back.

Random note: I squealed when Jeremiah called him "Your Majesty" and Lelouch said his full name. I'm happy he's, in a way, embracing his identity as a prince :D

Oh hells yeah, I squealed when Lelouch said "Because I am Lelouch vi Britannia." I too love when Lelouch acknowledges his prince heritage.

Jeremiah also calls Lelouch "denka" AND I HAD BEEN WAITING FOR THAT MOMENT SINCE. SINCE FOREVER. ;_________;

thankyousunriseilusunrise.

But yeah that whole scene I had to pause and flail about for five minutes, if only I had known what was waiting for me after it. >>

I should have linked to my "Why Rolo Could Have Killed Shirley" essay, but I got lazy.

You make a good point about Lelouch's arrogance once he believes he has someone on his side. It's interesting because of his being used to being betrayed as well. I completely forgot Rolo told Lelouch to give up on Nunnally for her own good. I really need to rewatch 7, but ewww bad animation.

Your line about Lelouch and Suzaku made me smile because I just realized it's true. That is probably the first sincere non-Nunnally-related smile Suzaku has had in all of R2. That's amazing! It makes everything that's happened between them so much more painful as well. And yes Lelouch's reaction is priceless, especially since he caught Suzaku in the act and probably felt off himself. They are such faildorks.

I'm a bit lost by "Suzaku immediately realizes what she means" though.

We'll see how long I last. XD

lol. Okay, posting it here because you are awesome. XD

I'm a bit lost by "Suzaku immediately realizes what she means" though.

I meant Suzaku understood that she was talking about his relationship with Lelouch, and her relationship with Lelouch - the Lelouch they knew. They are having one of those beautiful non-conversations you usually see between Nunnally and Lelouch.

I think he can't lie because Shirley is using her magic on him: she communicates through looks and body language, emotions and instincts.
And Suzaku has always used words and smiles to lie. When people touch him, he always tenses, when people get too close, he always flinches, Suzaku can't lie with his body. He has trained it better than that. And it is with her body and heart that Shirley is communicating at that point.

And I hope it lasts for a long time. XD

Now you have me watching that entire scene for all new reasons. Damn you! XD

I really enjoyed reading what you said about Shirley. One thing I think is really important to point out about her relationship with Lelouch is that she was asking for anything in return. Lelouch's relationships with the other characters all involve them wanting something back from him, Kallen with her need for a Lelouch as a leader, C.C. with her contract, Diethard with the want for a messiah, etc. However, Shirley was the one who loved him unconditionally. This is going to make life oh-so-much more painful for Lelouch. His almighty power wasn't even able to save the life of someone he loved. And I think he's going to take this pain out on others around him as a result.

One thing I'm curious about is how everyone will act as a result of her death since she was really the link between multiple factions (as a student at Ashford, a friend of Kallen's and Nunnally's, and a repeat victim of the Geass). Also, her death is definitely going to take the focus away from the school life: Millay graduated, Nunnally's governor-general, Kallen's captured, Sayoko was taken away for rehabilitation, Rolo is God knows where, etc. The only one left is Rivalz, really.

On Rolo, his actions reflect those of a young child, don't they? After all, when I see Rolo display his obsessiveness over Lelouch, it's more like a kid selfishly holding onto his favorite toy, unwilling to share it with anyone else. He never really had a childhood; that was destroyed by the Cult and his training to be an assassin. Now that he's going through this turmoil of new emotions, Rolo doesn't really know how to deal with them. And the way he's acting on these feelings is twisted and convoluted as a result of suppressing them for so long. Rolo's not an evil person. I feel pity for him, but I know he must die because of these devastating actions. I still wonder what's in his locket, though.

Note: I haven't read any spoilers apart from those in the magazines ~~those don't count >_>~~ , so no random spoilers of doom, por favor.

I love your comment on Rolo. Yes, he does act like a little child, doesn't he? A little child who has never been loved before. The Cult must be a horrible family.

I partially agree with your take that Shirley never asked anything back but a relationship with the Lelouch she knew. Still, she was getting something back in terms of self-awareness. Shirly's story, imo, is very much a coming of age story, with her having her values being questioned, just to get them back much stronger and meaningful than before.

And I agree with Shirley being an extremely important link between Lelouch and Ashford. I find it fascinating that Lelouch started Code Geass stating that his "life is a lie", and yet that is the same lying life that he ends up realizing he loved the most, and wanted to protect the most. Like a One thousand and one nights story, happiness was always around him, "like glass". And now it is dying on him in a pool of blood.

I find this so beautiful it makes me cry. XD

Edited 2008-07-08 03:16 (UTC)

Oooh good point about the "life is a lie" statement from early S1 Geass. It was a lie but one Lelouch never truly wanted to give up; he just didn't want to acknowledge it. The same as his obsession with the past while always saying he can only move forward. I think that always was a big part of why he was so frustrated with Suzaku and why, even now, he allows that small measure of dependence/faith.

Yes, you make a very good point about how Shirley is the only one to never desire anything in return. That also makes her love special. Yeah, I can see Lelouch throwing a vengeance fit... again.

Yeah, Shirley was pretty much Lelouch's last real connection to Ashford. I don't know what this will do to his happy crack dream of bringing everyone back to watch the fireworks.

Like Realms said, Rolo is very much a young child since he lacked a real childhood. I love the toy comparison for Lelouch though. I too cannot hate Rolo because a lot of how messed up he is now is Lelouch's fault for manipulating very volatile and unstable emotions. Rolo was acting for his new mission of protecting Lelouch; he thinks what he did was right.

I love the toy comparison for Lelouch though.

Good statement! Here's my own random addendum: Rolo's loyalty/feelings of possessiveness towards Lelouch are sort of similar to those of Lelouch's towards Nunnally. Lelouch's feelings for Nunnally are more of a pure variety, but the general "I would do anything for this person" emotional impetus is the same. Lelouch, as we've very well seen, is not the trusting type (due to his past relationships); as evidenced by that one screenshot of the OoBK members' stats in 13, he's not prepared to completely believe that anyone, even Kaguya or Diethard, is completely loyal to him. He's prepared for a betrayal from any one of them. However, I don't think he realizes the extent or danger of Rolo's loyalty to him. He probably assumes (wrongly as karma would dictate), Rolo's allegiances only run so thin like those of his other followers. And I don't think he recognizes the similarities between himself and his fake little brother which led to Shirley's untimely death.

Thank you. I agree entirely with everything said about Shirley -

"Shirley is beautiful."

So simple, yet so true. She is, and not just on the outside. She's very human. She has flaws and she feels pain. She's not perfect, but her heart is strong.

I loved the Jeremiah in this episode too. (My friend and I are always going around yelling "ORENJI KUUUN" but we both do love him to death) KAfhskggha Jeremiah/Marianne new OTP please. ;___; But I do get the feeling Lelouch is using him...

And I also get the feeling Lelouch is, in a moment of crazy nonsense, going to believe Suzaku killed Shirley. Because he trusted Suzaku with her life, and Suzaku ended up letting her die...no matter how indirectly.

Ugh, angst!Suzaku is getting on my nerves this season, though.

And a last note, your post was lovely. Good read.

Yes, the thing I love about Geass is that the characters are very human, make mistakes, react to them and suffer. There is no real good and bad.

I was just set off by the way we only catch part of Lelouch's eyes and not his expression during that scene. Lelouch tends to be calculating in those moments.

... I really don't think Lelouch would ever think that. Ever. I see it more likely that Suzaku will turn it on him and say he's responsible indirectly for getting her involved because he's Zero and all. Lelouch would know Suzaku would do everything in his power to protect Shirley; what happened was something nobody could have predicted.

I love complicated Suzaku just as I loved faker Suzaku. Again, it's the human aspect. He lost someone that represented everything good about him, his redemption.

Which is why you can't really say there's a hero or a heroine in this series. Because honestly, neither side is right nor wrong...Ahh, it's complicated.

I don't think he'd embrace the idea that Suzaku killed Shirley. I think it'd be a short term idea - something that runs through his head and then he immediately rejects it, while coming up with evidence that it's impossible that Suzaku was responsible. And it'd be just like Suzaku to take the entire blame.

It is understandable, how Suzaku acts, but I can't help it - it gets on my nerves. When he smiled so genuinely, I was like "*____* Yay" but then, of course, he reminds himself of Euphie.

I am INSANELY curious to see how this all plays out. It will be another long week, I'm sure.

And I also get the feeling Lelouch is, in a moment of crazy nonsense, going to believe Suzaku killed Shirley. Because he trusted Suzaku with her life, and Suzaku ended up letting her die...no matter how indirectly.

I don't know, I actually think it's more likely her death will (eventually) bring them back together. Lelouch doesn't want to lose anyone else, and Shirley told Suzaku to forgive him. This really depends on Turn 14 though, and how Suzaku finds out about Shirley. And if Rolo did kill Shirley, Lelouch is going to have to pay a lot more attention to the safety of those around him - especially Nunnally. If Rolo can snap and kill someone he had a connection too, he'll probably only be faster to off people he doesn't know.

Possibly. The series seems to be hinting at that, but we will see. It is Geass after all. Trust nothing!

Aww, c'mon. We all know that Nunnally just pretends to be crippled and blind, that she has a mega powerful perma Geass behind those eyelids, and that her showdown with Rolo will be the battle of the century. XD

[gets shot]

And then I also think it will bring them back together, just not easily.

I'm especially worried about Suzaku's reaction to Shirley's death...I really do wonder how it's all going to come together, if it ever does.

Yeeees to everything you wrote. I started tearing up on your paragraph about Shirley's love. ;___;

I think Jeremiah's pretty... true? But only because I want him to be, I wouldn't put it under the uhm plot to have him not be as loyal as I hope.

Everyone wants Jeremiah to be true because the idea of someone around Lelouch who actually acknowledges his royalty is that friggin' amazing.

Well that and come on, he's just a badass. >_> It's amazing how he goes from being really blah in R1 to being an amazing badass in R2. When I started watching R1 (A month ago or so, I think) I kept asking people what the deal with the Jeremiah love was because he seemed pretty bland.

But then once I got further into R1/started on R2.. what a *badass*.

Er, sorry. Completely off-topic. >.>

I was worried that his new loyalty to Lelouch would kill his badass factor so I'm glad to see others who are intrigued by the concept. Again, I never got the Orange-kun love because Orange-kun was such a sloppy concept. Jeremiah, though, Jeremiah I love beyond words.

Wow. Just wow.

I have one thing to say...

You are amazing. THANK YOU, This is excatly what I wanted to read.

Again, I am truly surprised nobody else has had much to say about Shirley in all the reaction posts. :( So I'm glad you enjoyed.

Wow. Great thoughts. I love your analysis of Shirley, as it echoes my own to a tee (except I liked her from the get go). The Shirley/Mao arc was among my favorites of the series. So I was also so frustrated at how they seemingly dropped her storyline, right as it was getting great. You're right that it was totally her episode, and I think that's why everyone's so, "baawwww". It's going to be interesting to see how this affects Lelouch. Hopefully, Sunrise won't end up trivializing it.

"Love is amazing power"

Well, I have ever been a fierce protester of the Lulu/Shirley ship, and I'm pretty damn irked that they go and do this just as Turn 12 made me really like it and actually want it for Lelouch just because it was so damn cute. She topped him so. So I felt that the only thing I could do to atone for all the harsh things I've constantly said about their relationship was to give her character some acknowledgment other than the "innocent and sweet girl who died."

I was never so much as a protester nor a supporter of Lelou/Shirley, or most of the others for that matter, as it just seems like a given that the guy's probably going to wind up alone, or worse, dead. Though they have been pushing Lelou/Kallen lately (though I prefer a more professional relationship there), and Lelou/CC works if mainly in a mutual understanding sort of way. Two people who can't go back to the way things were. Call me unconventional, but who the lead winds up with is never one of my main concerns, especially in shows like this, no matter how much of a romantic I am.

Not that I'd mind a Shirley/Lelou end. It did have a sweetness to it, and the tragic moments made it all the more tangible. It was believable, if stretched due to circumstance. She was the sort that could have brought him some peace. I think he'll wind up reflecting on the normal life he could of had without geass. It just wasn't in the cards.

I just always liked her. She was cute, had a great seiyuu, and, along with Millay and Euphemia, provided a bright spot in an otherwise brutal show. When they actually started doing things with her, it made her so much the better. It's a shame she's gone, but that's where the story has taken us. With Millay out of the picture and Shirley deceased, Lelouch has no more allusions to a normal, happy school life. Lelouch Lamperouge is basically dead, and only Zero and his driving force, Lelouch vi Britannia remain. It's a fact he'll have to deal with.

I also would've loved had they given her a bit more time after Turn 12. Even another episode or two. Though i suppose the pacing would have been mostly her fretting, or the contents of 13 drawn out. They'd dawdled so much after so found the letter she knew nothing about, that it seems so abrupt that they cut it so soon after bring it back. Heck, one of my biggest complaints all season was the appearance that they'd outright dropped the thread. I was partly convinced they didn't know where to take it, so they let it be buried. So I was glad they gave it a conclusion, no matter how inevitable it was. It's was obvious they wanted to wrap up the Ashford aspects to push forward.

Fortunately, they used her remaining time well. I too had initially thought her seemingly 180 a tad abrupt, but reading the character studies here, and rewatching the scenes, it works. I loved the mask motif: the way everything seemed a lie; and that she had learned the truth of the matter and realized that he wasn't one of the liars, but a sufferer of them as well. Which is probably why she confronted Suzaku about why they don't get along, when the truth she knew was that they were good friends; and why she asked Rolo if he loved him. She knows he's not his brother, but he must have a reason for the charade. Seeing it from this perspective, the forgiveness bit works. They capped it off nicely with her line of, "wanting to be something true" to Lelouch. That part got to me. She sort of always was. Whether wrapped in a lie unknowingly, or living the ugly, unvarnished truth, in the end, her feelings never faltered.

I especially liked her facial expression at the end. Despite not allowing to truly become the protector or source of happiness for him like she wanted, she looks serene, at peace, dare I say happy. Like a burden had been lifted from her shoulders.

I know this isn't as thorough or eloquent as what's already written, but it's been awhile since I really sat down I thought over a character (and it is early). It's also hard given how long it's been since season one, and how little they used her this season. Twelve was like a final valentine to the fans. A taste of what could of been, and a road sign that it wasn't meant to be. I knew it would never happen, and they made it obvious that it wasn't going to, but it was still nice, and made the tragedy about to occur more-so.

Fortunately, they gave her a great, meaningful send off, one befitting the character, as well as serving the plot. 12 and 13 were some of the best episodes in sometime. They could have just as easily left her in the background, wasted potential. Sure you could dwell on, "If she'd just stayed put", but that wasn't her state of mind at the time. Her concern was Lelouch, not herself. So it's been interesting reading these thoughts the community provides, and I'd been meaning to add to them. You post is among those that made me consider why it was I liked her and so dreaded her imminent demise. So thanks. It's especially always nice to hear from a non-fan that had reconsidered.

It's also exceptionally better than the standard 4chan, "crap death for crap character" response. god, that is getting on my nerves. No love over there. Even Danbooru is kinder (I love the nice comments being deleted for their spoiler value despite new pics showing said spoiler, wish I'd saved those). Like she won't be affecting anything, or didn't stand on her own. Though I do agree with one that they sort of f*cked her over again. Shame they had to kill her, but it's better than being writing into the background.

Good night, Dear Shirley. You'll be missed whether some think you won't or not.

Ah, I've missed these! ♥

Agree wholeheartedly about Rolo. I would say that Lelouch tries to keep a pretty good eye on Rolo but fails simply because he can't be everywhere and do everything, especially with him riding R2's emotional roller coaster. It seems that his defenses against Rolo pretty much consist of himself, and his plan is something along the lines of "string him along, and don't fuck up". I don't think he trusts anyone else to be able to contain Rolo like he can, and setting someone to that mission would probably cost them their lives. And the stakes are too high that he simply can't entrust that responsibility to anyone else. In short, I don't think it's Lelouch underestimating Rolo as much as his trying to make the best of a bad situation. Also, have we even seen how he feels about the Cult except as his "employer" of sorts?

Regarding Villetta, I'm unconvinced that she knows the answers to any of those questions, either. To me, it looked more like she went, "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. I don't know what to do. Oh god please stop fighting and try to salvage what's left of this clusterfuck." Pretty much just a tactic to buy time for her to think.

We've talked about Shirley, so I'll leave that alone.

As for Jeremiah, we know awfully little about him, and I think it's still too early for me to begin speculating about it. But I do get the vibe that he is genuine about wanting to serve Marianne.

The boys were awesome. Agree with everything you said. For a few seconds, it felt like season one again--not only for the honest, light-hearted atmosphere but also for these conversations whose messages were contained in all that was left unsaid. And of course, the body language. So miserable, the both of them, to have to keep up this hatred.

Personally, if I thought my best friend deliberately sabotaged my dream plan, killed my princess in front of me, and then dragged her name through the mud (whose story I had to accept, by the way, because the powers that be needed to cover up geass), my righteous anger wouldn't just magically subside. The only explanation I can think of is that Suzaku doesn't actually think that Lelouch (despite being Zero) could have deliberately done such a thing. He believes that there must be something more to the story, and that's why he keeps on desiring an answer--a complete story, a different story--from Zero. Despite what he said in the cave, he doesn't believe that Lelouch will betray everything. He still has some amount of faith in Lelouch, no matter how hard he fights it.

It was hard to watch the end scene not only because of Shirley but because of how Lelouch is so goddamn genuine and for once is not hiding behind a mask. And there is something beautiful with the raw curtness of the commands "Live!" and now "Don't die!"

Oh and Lelouch does love the emotional roller coaster. Good point about how Lelouch has no option but to take care of Rolo himself, something he can't quite manage with everything else he has to stay on top of.

As I told Realms, I adore when people go into the body language with the characters because it's something that so often gets overlooked in the middle of everything else, h@x action included. I also like your take on Suzaku only still being able to accidentally smile at Lelouch because there is that part of him that still can't accept, that still questions, that still wants to know why. As he said in 8, why would Lelouch order him to live and then turn around and kill Euphie. I do think that much of his rage is the lack of answers and being left with nothing but his hatred. As you said, it makes the both of them so miserable to cling to it because they've jammed themselves into this corner so tightly. Lelouch won't explain, and Suzaku has to do what little he can to defend Euphemia's name. So depressing.

I am curious about your statement about faith in Lelouch. Not because I don't believe but because I'm interested in whether you have examples I overlooked. I want so much to toss his asking Zero to keep the Japanese safe in 8 into this mix, but it's been established that Suzaku still doesn't know for certain that the current Zero is Lelouch. Though, I am thankful that this episode hinted more toward his suspicions being significant. So maybe I can assume that he was willing to put enough of his faith into believing that the current Zero is Lelouch to make the decision he did in 8. I really don't see him saying that to anyone else or having the belief that the promise would be honored.

I love your juxtaposition of the "live" and "don't die" commands. Lelouch hates losing those that matter to him, and he does tend to be more impulsive and less calculating/intelligent when death has a real presence. I mean, it didn't matter to him that telling a dying person not to die would never work; he was that desperate and panicking. The desperation in his voice and eyes tears me up every time. You are right, that was real Lelouch in that scene, unmasked and totally unprotected. As much as Lelouch goes on about war and sacrifices and "ends justify the means," he still can't take it when it's so very personal. Personal is Lelouch's greatest flaw. And it's the personal view on Geass that makes it so powerful. They really need it more this season.

I meant more that he still has faith that Lelouch in any incarnation would never cross certain lines. It's hard to say how Suzaku feels about Lelouch right now because he's almost always addressing pre-mindwipe!Lelouch in his head. However... "You will betray the world till the very, very end"--I really don't see him believing in that to the fullest anymore. With what he said in Turn 8, it seems that Suzaku does understand that Lelouch (the one beneath all his masks) at the least tries to protect those closest to him, regardless of whether or not he is Zero. So, uh, I think that was a roundabout way of saying "No, I don't have any concrete examples."

In any case, I wonder if Suzaku isn't forcing himself again to doubt that Lelouch is Zero. Maybe the end of Turn 8 is where he allows his doubt to slip, in which case whatever remains of his faith that Lelouch is a protector becomes relevant again. Things would be much easier if he believed Lelouch wasn't Zero--he'd be able to fight him and establish the SAR without any of the emotional baggage, and the people closest to Lelouch (who coincidentally are the people closest to Suzaku) would also be out of the line of fire.

If he convinces himself that Lelouch is Zero, however, considerations for Nunnally and the safety of the Ashford crowd become huge issues. And yet, if Lelouch became Zero again, he'd finally have an opportunity to get the Euphie mess cleared up. It's my theory that Suzaku doesn't really know what he believes or wants to believe about Zero. It would help explain why he goes a bit...wonky whenever Zero shows up in R2, alternating between wanting an explanation and wanting to do nothing more than shoot him out of the air. I think he'd rather destroy a faceless entity rather than one so personal, leading to his almost ordering soldiers to shoot on the million Zeroes gathered in Turn 8. Mind you, none of this obviously has any evidence to back it up. It's all just some fangirl theories to try to explain ~~Sunrise's fail~~ Suzaku's bizarre characterization this season.

You're right that "personal is Lelouch's greatest flaw". And this is what annoys me about people that try to characterize Lelouch and Suzaku based almost solely on what they say. They are both characters who set themselves a role and try to force themselves to fit it (and fail). Despite what they openly espouse, they can't help but be human and falter and be touched by those around them.

I find your idea of Suzaku not fully wanting to connect Zero and Lelouch again more because of the emotional baggage it means to everyone around them. That's a whole new take on it. I do, however, believe Suzaku has the better consistency of the boys this season. Suzaku I can explain most of the time. Lelouch... it's a 50/50. I do like what you said about the boys trying to force themselves into their given roles so hard that it often confuses them as well and leads to some strange considerations before an actual action is taken.

It's my theory that Suzaku doesn't really know what he believes or wants to believe about Zero. It would help explain why he goes a bit...wonky whenever Zero shows up in R2, alternating between wanting an explanation and wanting to do nothing more than shoot him out of the air.

I am most intrigued by this. It's hard to tell since Suzaku gets the evidence he needs to all but know this Zero is Lelouch and still he questions, still it remains a suspicion. It has to be more than just an inability to mentally connect the two. Even Suzaku isn't that bad.

My first comment on LJ!

Thank you very much for all the stuff you wrote about Shirley, she's one of my favourite characters. With this latest episode, I'm inclined to think that Shirley was to Lelouch as Euphemia was to Suzaku. A person who loved him and accepted him no matter what, understood him, and who would have been able to be a source of great support but for her life being cut tragically short.

Personally I think Rolo was an idiot for killing Shirley, not only for the obvious reasons, but because she was probably the only person who would have been able to help Rolo and Lelouch's relationship last long-term. If she'd been able to be by Lulu's side like she wanted to be that is... I mean, she was always getting on at him about the gambling, so using his fake little brother and then tossing him aside like a rag? Totally not on. She understood how Rolo felt about Lelouch as evidenced by the scene shortly before she got shot when she was talking to Rolo, so she would have been able to be a good influence on Lulu to treat Rolo better (with actual sincerity that is).

I don't hold much to the Shirley/Lelouch and Euphie/Suzaku comparison because Euphie was Suzaku's answer, his way to atone for everything he had done and someone he held in impossible regard and could never quite feel equal to. Shirley to Lelouch was more... his Ashford life, his friendships, his brush with love he didn't quite understand. I do, however, believe that both relationships represent some form of innocent love, even for the experienced Suzaku. But I think Euphemia's significance to Suzaku was the greater. He truly needed her. Lelouch needed Shirley too but for less complicated reasons. They are both beautiful relationships.

Realms actually has a great analysis of both girls that puts what they were much better than I could. You should totally check it out! (http://realms-of-life.livejournal.com/47180.html#cutid1)

Again, I don't think Rolo thinks things through like a normal person. He's obviously not sane so the rationalization that Shirley could support his relationship with Lelouch is nowhere near as important as protecting Lelouch's secret. Shirley was a threat, plain and simple. And Rolo may have dealt with that threat as he has always dealt with threats: immediate action! Sad but true.

I agree, they are both beautiful relationships. ^^

While I don't think they are exactly alike, they are similar in a more loose way. As in the girls connected the guys to a better part of their lives.

Also very true that you can't really expect Rolo to act rationally since he a tad on the insane side... but it still is a damn shame how things turned out...

I kind of hold to the comparison in the basest of ways. Basically, it's the last straw. As people put it, it cuts Lelouch's ties to Ashford, and gives him one more, strong reason to hate Geass. I'd be surprised if his convictions after this don't echo Suzaku's at the end of S1.

So while the girls might not mean the same to one another, they certainly provide similar catalysts.

Thanks for the link! it was an equally interesting read. Even with the morbid though if thinking Shirley as, "the fresher cadaver". T_T I remember when I used to analyze like this. It's so exhausting to do. Like a fine madness...

Personally, I don't think Rolo acted out of protecting Lelouch's secret. The fact that he was so irked by Shirley's want to bring him happiness, coupled with the mention of Nunnaly being the kicker suggests it was purely selfish reasons. He's "Lelouch's only brother", and damn any one who dares suggest otherwise.

I like some of your points, and I agree, Shirley deserved more love. It was sweet how she spent her last moments telling Lelouch thous things. With the Jeremiah bit, I disagree about the two soldiers in the mall. I think he didn't kill them because he knew they were acting against him under the power of LeLouch's Geass, and thus weren't protecting Lelouch on their own will. Sayako and the guards at school however, were acting on their own will, and thus had made the conscious decision to protect Lelouch, and idea which at the time probably disgusted Jeremiah.

Just as Lelouch knew, after he got over his ZOMG NUNNALLY MINE moment, Nunnally was safer with Suzaku by her side, something he's always wanted.
XD el oh el at that part, I love the way you said it.

Agreed; the end was very sad...

Suzu x Kallen pairing? *x___x nooooo*

Late to the party {lawl} but just wanted to say that the points about Shirley were great. Totally agree with everything.

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R2 Turn 13 Discusion: Karma

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Stupid post limit...

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