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code_geass2008-07-07 08:28 pm
nayami.livejournal.com) wrote in code_geass2008-07-07 08:28 pm
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R2 Turn 13 Discusion: Karma
Wow, it's harder to get back on that horse than I thought. But I figure this is as good an episode as any to give it a shot. Some people told me they wanted me to go back to these, but as always if I'm duplicating posts, feel free to smack me. I assume the rules are still remembered? Good.
Oh Rolo rolo rolo. Do we love you or love to hate you? I suppose it's a matter of what you're after in a character. But Geass has never given us a straight choice. I won't get into the did or didn't he do it? That's been taken care of. Instead, let's analyze what has happened to the boy over the course of the series. It's been established that the boy who has only ever knew an assassin's life latched onto the love/life Lelouch promised. He protected him from Suzaku in 5, tried to get him to go back to his Ashford life pre-R2 Turn 1 in 7, he helped Lelouch turn against Villetta, he became incredibly protect of Lelouch's reputation/way of life in 11 and he's so so jealous of the girls in 12 (yes, I know this is interpretation but COME ON did you see his expression at the end of 12?). Turn 13 opens with him as delighted, bouncy and proud to be around his brother as ever. It's important that Rolo never refers to Lelouch as Lelouch but always as "nii-san." "Lelouch" represents his old mission. The last time we see him use it is when he is still questioning where he sides. Rolo has made his decision now. He is Lelouch's all the way. Let's not forget how he outright hisses at Villetta for sending Jeremiah after Lelouch and when she calls him on his action, his response is "Are you trying to separate me from my nii-san?" Yeah... that is not sanity. And it's perfectly likely that it is this loyalty that could result in him killing one he poses as a threat.
Why doesn't Lelouch keep a better eye on the boy who in the past has shown willingness to kill without orders? Suzaku in 5. Nobody knows for sure. I am not sure if it would be unfair to say that Lelouch, himself, doesn't comprehend the depth of Rolo's loyalty. Lelouch has said he is just using Rolo. Whether this fact is still true is harder to rule on. I would say Rolo is still loyal to the cult above all else, but his taking on Jeremiah displays a certain argument to that theory. Taking on Jeremiah would reveal his defection. But maybe Rolo thought he could take out Jeremiah without that being an issue.
Villetta. Where does she stand? Did she lead Jeremiah into a trap because she doesn't want to reveal that she's been compromised? What about her continued interest in Ougi? Why does she question why Rolo turned? Does she want to understand Lelouch's appeal? And I use Lelouch and not Zero here on purpose. Each has their own appeal.
Hey! Why the hell isn't Shirley in this yet? Come to think of it, people haven't had all that much to say about her aside from "bawwww". That's a shame. Because Shirley OWNED this episode. Shirley took a while to grow on me; her role as the love interest is a tough one to push on a silly yaoi fangirl. But when I realized where Shirley's love for Lelouch came from, from wanting to know why he was the way he was and just plain understand him, I was intrigued. Shirley wanted to know Lelouch. That's all she ever wanted. Her part in 12, when she is so happy to have the real Lelouch back and not the playboy, I fell in love with her all over again. When she shot Villetta to protect Lelouch, even when she knew he was Zero, the man responsible for her father's death, in S1, was when I loved her most. I was so frustrated at how her character was virtually a plot device for the rest of the season. I know it is argued she still is in R2, but I don't care. Shirley is beautiful. Struggling to decide whether she should tell Suzaku that Lelouch is Zero, struggling to figure out who's lying to her and who's telling the truth and just what the hell is going on and struggling to understand how she truly feels.
Some have argued Shirley's decision to side with Lelouch comes too suddenly after her attempt to tell Suzaku about Zero. I counter this. Shirley lost her nerve the second she saw Suzaku. She was trying to act as she thought she should and pretty much decided she'd rather act with her heart. Because that is how Shirley is. As some also pointed out, Shirley could have told Lelouch who killed her before she died but chose to spend that precious time finally telling him she loved him. Again, thinking with her heart. Adding to this is the fact that Lelouch showed how much he cared about her when she almost fell off the roof, pleading with her to stay with him, that he didn't want to lose anyone else. I think Shirley knew then, she could never betray him. Then once she realized that Suzaku was no longer on Lelouch's side, she knew what she had to do. She had to give him someone who would stand by him, no matter what. Now, that is beautiful love. I don't care if it sounds cliche. It's still beautiful and powerful. Watching Shirley full come to terms with the battle Lelouch is in the midst of, with being ready to join him, despite how Britannia views Lelouch is simply amazing. And I contend that Shirley, in her final moments, showed us just the type of character that makes Geass what it is.
Jeremiah. Now I will say that I think the "I killed all these people just to ask you a question, Lelouch" routine is a bit... contrived. But I can forgive because I love Jeremiah. Not Orange-kun. Jeremiah. And I do know that Jeremiah has always hated himself for not being able to protect Marianne. I also noticed that once he got to the mall and de-geassed Lelouch's soldiers, he did not kill them. He could have, but he didn't. I assume the men Jeremiah took out at Ashford attacked him first. Just like Sayoko. Jeremiah may have just plain been driven. He may still have a bit of his crazies from the end of S1. They never did explain how he got rid of his crazies. People have also questioned whether Jeremiah's loyalty is sincere. In this case, I'm leaning toward yes more than a double-ruse, but we'll see. My bigger question is did Jeremiah geass Shirley on purpose or was he just canceling out the general area prior to his arrival? Does Jeremiah still care about Villetta? V.V. saved Jeremiah's life; how does he think he will be able to help Lelouch if V.V. retaliates for his betrayal? Also, does Lelouch really trust Jeremiah now or is he using him as well?
And finally the boys. Always the boys. I admit when their scene first started, I was plenty irksome. They were so casual, albeit grumpysauruses, and when they laughed together after saving Shirley, I was dying for some inner looks into their heads. I got it a second after I complained, with Suzaku snarling at himself for smiling around Euphie's killer. Obviously the reason he reacted to this instance and not any of the other times he's smiled and toyed around Lelouch this season is because he wasn't faking it and it was a natural reaction. That made me love it! I loved how he hated it. I loved how later Shirley figures out that he doesn't want to forgive Lelouch. Lelouch too had his grr Suzaku grr moments, but of course they weren't as epic. I think it's because as much as Lelouch is FURIOUS with Suzaku, he still understands that Suzaku can be depended on to protect those he cares about. Just as Lelouch knew, after he got over his ZOMG NUNNALLY MINE moment, Nunnally was safer with Suzaku by her side, something he's always wanted. Nunnally has her knight. And as he says in this episode, Shirley should be safe with Suzaku. Still, it's apparent the loss of the friendship gets to him as much as Suzaku.
I was actually amazed with how honest Suzaku was with Shirley, telling her that he used to like Lelouch. He completely dropped his act and questions he couldn't lie about, he simply didn't answer. Maybe Suzaku is simply tired of lying; maybe he could tell Shirley already knew. By the way, I adore that part where Shirley smacks Suzaku to distract him from going off on his LELOUCH YOU'RE ZERO track. It's just so cute, and you can tell how much Suzaku wants to prove his suspicions, but he just can't hurt his friends. Again, this is why the ZOMG SUZAKU KILLED SHIRLEY theory is so retarded. If Suzaku placed destroying Zero over everything else, he would have ditched Shirley. All she did was tease him about staying, and he does. Because he's her friend, and as messed up as Suzaku has gotten amid everything he's gone through, his friends still matter to him. Does this scene hint toward future reconciliation? Who knows? It's Geass. But I've heard theories of a redemption/forgiveness theme... I'll leave it at that.
Damn, I almost forgot to put in here the awesome ending scene. I just about teared up when Lelouch tried to geass her to live. Lelouch, all that power, and he still can't protect those he cares about. It's just so heart-breaking to watch him lose someone else he cares about, and he knows it's his fault. He knows he brought her into this, despite doing everything in his power to keep her away from him. As others have said, it's Euphie all over again for him. He screwed up, and now he knows the true dangers of his double life, something he held onto exclusively for the sake of Ashford. Karma just won't allow people close to Lelouch to stay safe.
The Geass cult breaks my brain, and I leave that to saner minds or I will get lost in my "Cornelia is so hot" mode. Um... so about them gods?
Oh and real quick OP notes:
-golden geass?
-schneizel? a bigger role in the works?
-where is suzaku during the montage? cecile and lloyd are there.
-what is with the parallelism of the Guren and the Lancelot? rivals? pairing?
-I love the ending sequence with Lelouch, Charles and Schneizel
-WHY THE HELL IS THIS MUSIC SO PERKY?
-i take this moment to quietly fangirl about the SuzaLulu picture in the ED nobody will notice if i put it here sssh.
I would also go yay maid but everyone and their dog loves the maid and /a/ will give her all the attention she needs. Go forth and prosper.
Oh Rolo rolo rolo. Do we love you or love to hate you? I suppose it's a matter of what you're after in a character. But Geass has never given us a straight choice. I won't get into the did or didn't he do it? That's been taken care of. Instead, let's analyze what has happened to the boy over the course of the series. It's been established that the boy who has only ever knew an assassin's life latched onto the love/life Lelouch promised. He protected him from Suzaku in 5, tried to get him to go back to his Ashford life pre-R2 Turn 1 in 7, he helped Lelouch turn against Villetta, he became incredibly protect of Lelouch's reputation/way of life in 11 and he's so so jealous of the girls in 12 (yes, I know this is interpretation but COME ON did you see his expression at the end of 12?). Turn 13 opens with him as delighted, bouncy and proud to be around his brother as ever. It's important that Rolo never refers to Lelouch as Lelouch but always as "nii-san." "Lelouch" represents his old mission. The last time we see him use it is when he is still questioning where he sides. Rolo has made his decision now. He is Lelouch's all the way. Let's not forget how he outright hisses at Villetta for sending Jeremiah after Lelouch and when she calls him on his action, his response is "Are you trying to separate me from my nii-san?" Yeah... that is not sanity. And it's perfectly likely that it is this loyalty that could result in him killing one he poses as a threat.
Why doesn't Lelouch keep a better eye on the boy who in the past has shown willingness to kill without orders? Suzaku in 5. Nobody knows for sure. I am not sure if it would be unfair to say that Lelouch, himself, doesn't comprehend the depth of Rolo's loyalty. Lelouch has said he is just using Rolo. Whether this fact is still true is harder to rule on. I would say Rolo is still loyal to the cult above all else, but his taking on Jeremiah displays a certain argument to that theory. Taking on Jeremiah would reveal his defection. But maybe Rolo thought he could take out Jeremiah without that being an issue.
Villetta. Where does she stand? Did she lead Jeremiah into a trap because she doesn't want to reveal that she's been compromised? What about her continued interest in Ougi? Why does she question why Rolo turned? Does she want to understand Lelouch's appeal? And I use Lelouch and not Zero here on purpose. Each has their own appeal.
Hey! Why the hell isn't Shirley in this yet? Come to think of it, people haven't had all that much to say about her aside from "bawwww". That's a shame. Because Shirley OWNED this episode. Shirley took a while to grow on me; her role as the love interest is a tough one to push on a silly yaoi fangirl. But when I realized where Shirley's love for Lelouch came from, from wanting to know why he was the way he was and just plain understand him, I was intrigued. Shirley wanted to know Lelouch. That's all she ever wanted. Her part in 12, when she is so happy to have the real Lelouch back and not the playboy, I fell in love with her all over again. When she shot Villetta to protect Lelouch, even when she knew he was Zero, the man responsible for her father's death, in S1, was when I loved her most. I was so frustrated at how her character was virtually a plot device for the rest of the season. I know it is argued she still is in R2, but I don't care. Shirley is beautiful. Struggling to decide whether she should tell Suzaku that Lelouch is Zero, struggling to figure out who's lying to her and who's telling the truth and just what the hell is going on and struggling to understand how she truly feels.
Some have argued Shirley's decision to side with Lelouch comes too suddenly after her attempt to tell Suzaku about Zero. I counter this. Shirley lost her nerve the second she saw Suzaku. She was trying to act as she thought she should and pretty much decided she'd rather act with her heart. Because that is how Shirley is. As some also pointed out, Shirley could have told Lelouch who killed her before she died but chose to spend that precious time finally telling him she loved him. Again, thinking with her heart. Adding to this is the fact that Lelouch showed how much he cared about her when she almost fell off the roof, pleading with her to stay with him, that he didn't want to lose anyone else. I think Shirley knew then, she could never betray him. Then once she realized that Suzaku was no longer on Lelouch's side, she knew what she had to do. She had to give him someone who would stand by him, no matter what. Now, that is beautiful love. I don't care if it sounds cliche. It's still beautiful and powerful. Watching Shirley full come to terms with the battle Lelouch is in the midst of, with being ready to join him, despite how Britannia views Lelouch is simply amazing. And I contend that Shirley, in her final moments, showed us just the type of character that makes Geass what it is.
Jeremiah. Now I will say that I think the "I killed all these people just to ask you a question, Lelouch" routine is a bit... contrived. But I can forgive because I love Jeremiah. Not Orange-kun. Jeremiah. And I do know that Jeremiah has always hated himself for not being able to protect Marianne. I also noticed that once he got to the mall and de-geassed Lelouch's soldiers, he did not kill them. He could have, but he didn't. I assume the men Jeremiah took out at Ashford attacked him first. Just like Sayoko. Jeremiah may have just plain been driven. He may still have a bit of his crazies from the end of S1. They never did explain how he got rid of his crazies. People have also questioned whether Jeremiah's loyalty is sincere. In this case, I'm leaning toward yes more than a double-ruse, but we'll see. My bigger question is did Jeremiah geass Shirley on purpose or was he just canceling out the general area prior to his arrival? Does Jeremiah still care about Villetta? V.V. saved Jeremiah's life; how does he think he will be able to help Lelouch if V.V. retaliates for his betrayal? Also, does Lelouch really trust Jeremiah now or is he using him as well?
And finally the boys. Always the boys. I admit when their scene first started, I was plenty irksome. They were so casual, albeit grumpysauruses, and when they laughed together after saving Shirley, I was dying for some inner looks into their heads. I got it a second after I complained, with Suzaku snarling at himself for smiling around Euphie's killer. Obviously the reason he reacted to this instance and not any of the other times he's smiled and toyed around Lelouch this season is because he wasn't faking it and it was a natural reaction. That made me love it! I loved how he hated it. I loved how later Shirley figures out that he doesn't want to forgive Lelouch. Lelouch too had his grr Suzaku grr moments, but of course they weren't as epic. I think it's because as much as Lelouch is FURIOUS with Suzaku, he still understands that Suzaku can be depended on to protect those he cares about. Just as Lelouch knew, after he got over his ZOMG NUNNALLY MINE moment, Nunnally was safer with Suzaku by her side, something he's always wanted. Nunnally has her knight. And as he says in this episode, Shirley should be safe with Suzaku. Still, it's apparent the loss of the friendship gets to him as much as Suzaku.
I was actually amazed with how honest Suzaku was with Shirley, telling her that he used to like Lelouch. He completely dropped his act and questions he couldn't lie about, he simply didn't answer. Maybe Suzaku is simply tired of lying; maybe he could tell Shirley already knew. By the way, I adore that part where Shirley smacks Suzaku to distract him from going off on his LELOUCH YOU'RE ZERO track. It's just so cute, and you can tell how much Suzaku wants to prove his suspicions, but he just can't hurt his friends. Again, this is why the ZOMG SUZAKU KILLED SHIRLEY theory is so retarded. If Suzaku placed destroying Zero over everything else, he would have ditched Shirley. All she did was tease him about staying, and he does. Because he's her friend, and as messed up as Suzaku has gotten amid everything he's gone through, his friends still matter to him. Does this scene hint toward future reconciliation? Who knows? It's Geass. But I've heard theories of a redemption/forgiveness theme... I'll leave it at that.
Damn, I almost forgot to put in here the awesome ending scene. I just about teared up when Lelouch tried to geass her to live. Lelouch, all that power, and he still can't protect those he cares about. It's just so heart-breaking to watch him lose someone else he cares about, and he knows it's his fault. He knows he brought her into this, despite doing everything in his power to keep her away from him. As others have said, it's Euphie all over again for him. He screwed up, and now he knows the true dangers of his double life, something he held onto exclusively for the sake of Ashford. Karma just won't allow people close to Lelouch to stay safe.
The Geass cult breaks my brain, and I leave that to saner minds or I will get lost in my "Cornelia is so hot" mode. Um... so about them gods?
Oh and real quick OP notes:
-golden geass?
-schneizel? a bigger role in the works?
-where is suzaku during the montage? cecile and lloyd are there.
-what is with the parallelism of the Guren and the Lancelot? rivals? pairing?
-I love the ending sequence with Lelouch, Charles and Schneizel
-WHY THE HELL IS THIS MUSIC SO PERKY?
-i take this moment to quietly fangirl about the SuzaLulu picture in the ED nobody will notice if i put it here sssh.
I would also go yay maid but everyone and their dog loves the maid and /a/ will give her all the attention she needs. Go forth and prosper.
no subject
Agree wholeheartedly about Rolo. I would say that Lelouch tries to keep a pretty good eye on Rolo but fails simply because he can't be everywhere and do everything, especially with him riding R2's emotional roller coaster. It seems that his defenses against Rolo pretty much consist of himself, and his plan is something along the lines of "string him along, and don't fuck up". I don't think he trusts anyone else to be able to contain Rolo like he can, and setting someone to that mission would probably cost them their lives. And the stakes are too high that he simply can't entrust that responsibility to anyone else. In short, I don't think it's Lelouch underestimating Rolo as much as his trying to make the best of a bad situation. Also, have we even seen how he feels about the Cult except as his "employer" of sorts?
Regarding Villetta, I'm unconvinced that she knows the answers to any of those questions, either. To me, it looked more like she went, "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. I don't know what to do. Oh god please stop fighting and try to salvage what's left of this clusterfuck." Pretty much just a tactic to buy time for her to think.
We've talked about Shirley, so I'll leave that alone.
As for Jeremiah, we know awfully little about him, and I think it's still too early for me to begin speculating about it. But I do get the vibe that he is genuine about wanting to serve Marianne.
The boys were awesome. Agree with everything you said. For a few seconds, it felt like season one again--not only for the honest, light-hearted atmosphere but also for these conversations whose messages were contained in all that was left unsaid. And of course, the body language. So miserable, the both of them, to have to keep up this hatred.
Personally, if I thought my best friend deliberately sabotaged my dream plan, killed my princess in front of me, and then dragged her name through the mud (whose story I had to accept, by the way, because the powers that be needed to cover up geass), my righteous anger wouldn't just magically subside. The only explanation I can think of is that Suzaku doesn't actually think that Lelouch (despite being Zero) could have deliberately done such a thing. He believes that there must be something more to the story, and that's why he keeps on desiring an answer--a complete story, a different story--from Zero. Despite what he said in the cave, he doesn't believe that Lelouch will betray everything. He still has some amount of faith in Lelouch, no matter how hard he fights it.
It was hard to watch the end scene not only because of Shirley but because of how Lelouch is so goddamn genuine and for once is not hiding behind a mask. And there is something beautiful with the raw curtness of the commands "Live!" and now "Don't die!"
no subject
As I told Realms, I adore when people go into the body language with the characters because it's something that so often gets overlooked in the middle of everything else, h@x action included. I also like your take on Suzaku only still being able to accidentally smile at Lelouch because there is that part of him that still can't accept, that still questions, that still wants to know why. As he said in 8, why would Lelouch order him to live and then turn around and kill Euphie. I do think that much of his rage is the lack of answers and being left with nothing but his hatred. As you said, it makes the both of them so miserable to cling to it because they've jammed themselves into this corner so tightly. Lelouch won't explain, and Suzaku has to do what little he can to defend Euphemia's name. So depressing.
I am curious about your statement about faith in Lelouch. Not because I don't believe but because I'm interested in whether you have examples I overlooked. I want so much to toss his asking Zero to keep the Japanese safe in 8 into this mix, but it's been established that Suzaku still doesn't know for certain that the current Zero is Lelouch. Though, I am thankful that this episode hinted more toward his suspicions being significant. So maybe I can assume that he was willing to put enough of his faith into believing that the current Zero is Lelouch to make the decision he did in 8. I really don't see him saying that to anyone else or having the belief that the promise would be honored.
I love your juxtaposition of the "live" and "don't die" commands. Lelouch hates losing those that matter to him, and he does tend to be more impulsive and less calculating/intelligent when death has a real presence. I mean, it didn't matter to him that telling a dying person not to die would never work; he was that desperate and panicking. The desperation in his voice and eyes tears me up every time. You are right, that was real Lelouch in that scene, unmasked and totally unprotected. As much as Lelouch goes on about war and sacrifices and "ends justify the means," he still can't take it when it's so very personal. Personal is Lelouch's greatest flaw. And it's the personal view on Geass that makes it so powerful. They really need it more this season.
no subject
In any case, I wonder if Suzaku isn't forcing himself again to doubt that Lelouch is Zero. Maybe the end of Turn 8 is where he allows his doubt to slip, in which case whatever remains of his faith that Lelouch is a protector becomes relevant again. Things would be much easier if he believed Lelouch wasn't Zero--he'd be able to fight him and establish the SAR without any of the emotional baggage, and the people closest to Lelouch (who coincidentally are the people closest to Suzaku) would also be out of the line of fire.
If he convinces himself that Lelouch is Zero, however, considerations for Nunnally and the safety of the Ashford crowd become huge issues. And yet, if Lelouch became Zero again, he'd finally have an opportunity to get the Euphie mess cleared up. It's my theory that Suzaku doesn't really know what he believes or wants to believe about Zero. It would help explain why he goes a bit...wonky whenever Zero shows up in R2, alternating between wanting an explanation and wanting to do nothing more than shoot him out of the air. I think he'd rather destroy a faceless entity rather than one so personal, leading to his almost ordering soldiers to shoot on the million Zeroes gathered in Turn 8. Mind you, none of this obviously has any evidence to back it up. It's all just some fangirl theories to try to explain
Sunrise's failSuzaku's bizarre characterization this season.You're right that "personal is Lelouch's greatest flaw". And this is what annoys me about people that try to characterize Lelouch and Suzaku based almost solely on what they say. They are both characters who set themselves a role and try to force themselves to fit it (and fail). Despite what they openly espouse, they can't help but be human and falter and be touched by those around them.
no subject
It's my theory that Suzaku doesn't really know what he believes or wants to believe about Zero. It would help explain why he goes a bit...wonky whenever Zero shows up in R2, alternating between wanting an explanation and wanting to do nothing more than shoot him out of the air.
I am most intrigued by this. It's hard to tell since Suzaku gets the evidence he needs to all but know this Zero is Lelouch and still he questions, still it remains a suspicion. It has to be more than just an inability to mentally connect the two. Even Suzaku isn't that bad.