code_geass | R2 Turn 17 Discussion: Fragile lives, shattered dreams

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R2 Turn 17 Discussion: Fragile lives, shattered dreams

Yeah I took a break for 15 and 16 mostly, but hell if I'm missing 17! Rules rules oh yes, no character-bashing and no commenting with speculations/spoilers. This includes the magazine spoilers. This post is about 17 and back, NO FORWARD. But seriously, we need more studies into this one. Side note, this is ALLLL about the boys, but feel free to chime in with other important mentions.

Yes, I did think "The Kids Aren't All Right" is a nice way to sum up this episode. Moving along since I want this discussion to ~~zero~~ home in on emotions and motivations, I think we shall start with Suzaku. I love all the "waaaah. Suzaku stepped on his head" moaning from fangirls. How easily we forget that the very first time the boys met, Suzaku PUNCHED HIM IN THE FACE. Suzaku has ever been a violent and impulsive boy; he just learned how to squelch it beneath his lies. Hell, he's being most honest with himself when he's beating the crap out of someone. And how do we know Suzaku is being honest while he's being as vicious as possible? Throughout the scene, he is an emotional wreck. Think back to his actions, tone and hysteria in Stage 25 and Turn 2. In Turn 17, he's crying, clutching onto his connection to the past -- once a watch and now an emblem -- and throwing everything he's got at Lelouch verbally, even to the point of constant pronoun switching as someone caught. I also want to point out he's demanding Lelouch to bring back Euphie and screaming at him for wanting forgiveness now. This goes back to both Stage 25, where Suzaku sneers at Lelouch's request for a partnership to save Nunnally after Lelouch kills Euphie, previously refusing Suzaku's request for a similar partnership to help Euphie and Japan. How dare Lelouch ask him for forgiveness now? How dare he? Suzaku is truly miserable; he tells himself and Lelouch he's there solely so he no longer has to lie, especially to Nunnally, but so many of his questions are focused on why Lelouch or rather Zero saved his life so many times. He screams at Lelouch that he's horrible and that he betrayed their friendship, but it's clear he too is unwilling to so easily let it go. We've seen this in 13, when Lelouch is the only person who manages to get a true smile out of Lelouch. And again in this episode, where we learn Suzaku has been keeping pictures of both Kallen and Lelouch in a photo album. Happy pictures. Suzaku cherishes his memories because Suzaku is ever trapped in the past, even as Lelouch urges him to move on, to stare forward.

And for once, Suzaku is ready to do so. He proves that he understands Lelouch even more than Lelouch understands him because he has carried his guilt and self-hatred for so long. He catches Lelouch in his lies. He knows Lelouch is feeding him half-truths. We'll get to Lelouch's side of this in a moment. But what does Suzaku tell him? To make his lies a reality. To become an ally of justice. To use his power and his lies for good. Yeah yeah you could argue that Suzaku also brings up the "atone for your sin" aspects, which harkens back to a focus on the past. But he's not exactly telling Lelouch to stop being Zero either. On the contrary, he is telling him ONLY Zero can save the world. But he is urging him to think of the right methods. Is this Suzaku reversing his stance? No. This is him looking for a way to balance the two. A few episodes back, Suzaku realized how dangerously close to Zero he actually is (with the Refrain incident, its one saving grace), and while he doesn't want to be like Zero, he's realized that being the POLAR OPPOSITE will not solve things either.

So of course, it's a major kick in the ass that DIABOLOS EX MACHINA intervenes just when he's ready to try. And thanks to the manipulations of a very devious Kanon and Schneizel, Suzaku, who was struggling so hard to find himself, has his very self questioned once more. Literally. Is he Euphemia's knight? A Knight of the Rounds? Lelouch's friend? Son of Kururugi Genbu? The devils use Suzaku's crisis to get what they want from him (possibly about Geass) and try to guilt-trip him into being their little Weapon of Destruction. I should point out that I am not sure whether anyone understands the true potential of Freya. Suzaku's fear is not endangering many others but attacking Japan. Suzaku is no longer sure he wants to fight, but he has been made to think that his refusal to tell about Zero and Geass perpetuated the war, and now he must atone for it again. And we know how Suzaku loves to atone. Schneizel and Kanon suck. :(

As for Lelouch, who is once, twice, INFINITY TIMES the liar, some may wonder why, even now, he cannot be honest with Suzaku. Personally, when I first heard spoilers of this episode, I wondered how Lelouch would be honest. Lelouch's lies are his protection, his protection for others. If he lied to Nunnally, there was less a chance she would be involved. If he lied to Suzaku, there was less a chance Suzaku would question his principles and risk Britannia's anger. If he lied to his Knights, there was more a chance they would believe in his miracles and not make dangerous second-guesses. Now I'm not saying, there was not a selfish aspect to these lies as well because there was. As I said earlier, Lelouch tells half-truths. And these are what he presents to Suzaku. Another friend said Lelouch gives Suzaku what he wants to hear to make Suzaku focus all his hate on Lelouch and keep Nunnally completely innocent. I like this idea as well. And Suzaku knows Lelouch's lies are his protection. As he says, they are eyes you use when you're hiding something and taking the blame. I, being a fangirl, take particular delight in the lie about geassing Suzaku because it justifies my theory that Lelouch's action was not planned or self-preservational but simply the only thing that came to mind: saving his friend. Speaking of that, going back to young Suzaku's declaration "You don't have to have a reason for saving someone." So it is for Lelouch.

A few more things to take note in this scene are Lelouch's reactions. For Suzaku's most difficult questions, he turns away before answering. When Suzaku snaps at him for daring to show himself, Lelouch is shocked by the way Suzaku cuts into his usual logic rhetoric about numbers. He panics when Suzaku demands he use his miracles to reverse the past. Even though, Suzaku is lying himself bare, Lelouch cannot allow himself to do the same. And this makes the few times he does all the more noticeable. No wonder Suzaku gets so pissed at him. And though Suzaku cannot control his tears throughout, Lelouch remains with his mask, only letting it slip when he's truly caught off guard. His realizing Suzaku sees through his lies and his true hope that maybe he can save Nunnally, maybe he can have his friend back. A friend that despite everything, he still trusts to protect his sister. Not to say Lelouch was so trusting of Suzaku; he did have his random Guilford contingency plan. But again in Turn 7, he was willing to let Nunnally stay with Suzaku. He still refused to fatally target Suzaku. And at a time when Lelouch has lost everything else -- C.C., Kallen, Nunnally, Ashford -- Suzaku is all he has left. So it makes sense that he totally loses it when that's proven "false." The mask breaks, and Lelouch is left with pain, tears and rage. I do love how Lelouch is still crying even while readying for his final battle, even while making his usual speech about throwing away emotions. Lelouch is broken. This is the only way I can justify him relying on Rolo, ROLO FOR HELL'S SAKE, to save Nunnally. wtg lulu. Also, I take this last moment to giggle at Schneizel wanting to know what was up with Suzaku's weird relationship with Zero.

I suppose I should also spotlight Gino, who is awesome with perception and knowing a bit of why Suzaku is so messed up. I really want Gino and Kallen to run away together, even though I don't want actual defection. I want to see her reaction to that last quip. Oh wait, I liked the battling lolis versus the Knights of the Round too. Bismark vs. Kaguya was special. I wouldn't have minded more from their side and less from OMG I'M GOING TO THROW A BATTLESHIP AT YOU Luciano.

Disliked things: Bismark, Luciano (you better die in 18), C.C. being a moeblob and Villetta under house arrest. How the hell did they survive that fall anyway, Geass? Is it just that unimportant? Oh and the continuous picking on Guilford. Yeesh, Geass, was did the glasses bishi ever do to you?

I would go into the Order disputes, the random battles, Schneizel being a dick, but who am I kidding? This episode was about the boys. And now we can all whine about how Japan still, rightfully, holds grudges and how much Turn 18 is going to hurt us.

ETA: I forgot that I love the EPIC readying for showdown music.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

As it has been shown time and time again Lelouch really understands Suzaku. He used it to his advantage when the multiple zeros made a run for it to China. In this episode however, Suzaku fails to truly understand Lelouch. He really only sees the parts he can see in himself. Lelouch has always been guarded, but so has Suzaku, hiding behind a facade of being sweet-natured and a little innocent. Even if Suzaku did see through Lelouch's lies I don't think he has true understanding, because he only sees himself. The parts he sees of Lelouch that he can't relate to himself, all have a negative context. Inhumane.

Luciano does need to die *nods*

I respectively disagree. While I believe that Lelouch does understand Suzaku's thought process insanely well; Lelouch has never really sought to understand Suzaku because this is not the Suzaku he knows. He knows Japan!Suzaku not Britannia!Suzaku. And it frustrates him to no end throughout the series. It is partially why his subconscious wish is to reverse Suzaku's new self-sacrificing mentality. As Suzaku tells him, that move is a curse; it truly hurts him; it denies the path he has chosen. Lelouch also never tries to understand Suzaku's side of the battle; this episode shows Suzaku clearly tries to understand his and is even willing to compromise on it. You make valid points about Suzaku seeing Lelouch as inhumane because of what he's done but Lelouch did embrace a dark and dangerous power; he made a choice that has consequences. I think Suzaku has a right to be angry, especially since many of those consequences directly affected him and those he cares about. But if all Suzaku understood were the parts of Lelouch that mirror, he wouldn't validate Zero. And he does. That's the most stunning part of this episode. Suzaku wants Lelouch to fight as ZERO. He understands Lelouch knows Zero; he understands Zero's power. And he acknowledges that Lelouch is lying deep down; this is why he gets so ANGRY with Lelouch for continuing to do it. Why else is Suzaku asking him why he did good things? Suzaku is trying to prove to himself that the Lelouch he respected remains. He is not just focused on berating him. He wants to know the truth, and Lelouch won't give it. So he has to figure out on his own. Not only that, Suzaku figured out Lelouch was Zero.

I agree. Both boys are very, very bad at understanding each other. And they project a lot of themselves on each other as well (for instance, Lelouch orders Suzaku to live because self-preservation, and the preservation of those he loves, are paramount to him. He doesn't say: save yourself. He says LIVE. It's a very, very different kind of order, and it comes from the gut). It's incredible how their friendship survives through most of so many misunderstandings. Still, they have some moments of perfect clarity that are simply impressive.

And I guess that, when we watch CG, it's damn hard to keep tabs on who misunderstands the most. I'm very sure Sunrise doesn't want us to. XD

I stand officially corrected *bows*

As a random note. Do you remember when Lulu was in talking to Euphie before she went on a killing spree, Suzaku could see C.c. in the Knightmare and when Lulu's geass becoming permanant happened, it somehow caused both C.c. and Suzaku to become unconcious. What is your take on that? It was the same way Lelouch saw C.c. in episode one of the first season, when C.c. said 'I've found you my...' And then C.c. was asking Suzaku something when they fainted... I really think the boys are linked in some way spiritually in a way that is going to keep throwing them together.

I humbly ask for your wisdom ^^;

Haha. That I wish I could give my take on. I hope it's not a plot hole the creators are never going to address. But there is also Suzaku seeing Marianne in his cracky Geass visions to contend with as well. There is something linking Geass and the two, but canon is playing coy with us. Though Suzaku lost consciousness for touching C.C. while she was having her spaz. I think that's the result of her power slamming into him, like back in Narita.

hey, lovely as usual. XD And about the boys, so YAY? I'm a bit braindead, so I'd like to add one thing or two.

I agree with you about Lelouch's motivations to lie. I would add another one though: the same for him not telling the truth in the first place in the cave, back in Stage 25. Lelouch - according to his own definition - wants to love without limitations. I think that the other side of this coin is that he has the same idea about responsibilities: he feels responsible without limitations. It make sense, since Lelouch's love is a provider/caretaker love and his role model is King Arthur. I think that's especially true for the first part of the dialog, when he is not lying like in the second part. He feels responsible for ordering Euphie to kill and for Euphie and Shirley's death. As he tell us back in Stage 22: " Does that mean I have to bear the sin and atone for it? / I've made the contract knowing it. I knew how dangerous this power could be." Lelouch's perception of cause and consequence go way back. And I think that is one of his "King" traits.

I've already pointed this out to you, but I would like to leave it here for record. Lelouch is far more interested in begging for Nunnally's safety than apologizing. He just asks once for he knows he can't be forgiven (he has not forgiven himself. in fact, he has no intention of forgiving himself). His apologies are merely a tool, not because he doesn't feel responsible, but because he thinks they are pointless. Yet, that is the part of their dialog Suzaku pays more attention to, which makes their conversation a beautiful, beautiful not!dialog.

It's really sad that he apologizes, though, because as we know, "friends don't have to apologize".

I agree with you with the parallel between this scene and the showdown at the cave. In both scenes, Suzaku is demanding about the past, while Lelouch is eager to change the future. To me: "What about Euphie?"/"That's in the past" = "Bring Euphie back to life"/"I can't go back and make everything different."

The huge difference, this time, is that Lelouch can't laugh about the matter (hysterically). He feels like he should give Suzaku some satisfaction, since his sister's destiny is in Suzaku's hands and he is far more lonely than he ever was. But all he can do is lie very sincerely. It is really awesome that Suzaku understands that, and even asks him to lie much more - as Zero.

I love Suzaku wanting to use Zero, because he has focused his hatred on Zero all through the series. When he realizes Lelouch is human (after denying it a few minutes before), he can't help but understand the humanity of his mask too, proving, once more, that in canon Zero has never become a completely separated entity.

I love the reversal of values there: both boys realize they can only be truthful through their deceptions. That's what they have been doing all through their lives, maybe because they fear their worlds wouldn't be able to stand anything else (and they are probably right).

Good point about Lelouch always wanting to take full responsibility to the point of madness. That's why I say Lelouch doesn't out and out lie through most of the second part but rather provides half-truths. He did do those things and they did have his desired outcomes, but that's not why he did them. I do love how he finally does say Shirley's death was his fault though since before he was set on assigning blame to Geass and set to take that out himself, as he owed her. Also, yes on Lelouch realizing apologies are pointless. As he says, he can't change the past; he can't undo those things. But deep down, Suzaku wants him to apologize as much as he knows he can't accept those apologies. I think that's what's behind Suzaku snarling at him for "apologizing." He needs to know Lelouch cares about what he did, that it means something to him. Even if he throws it back in Lelouch's face, he can at least see it. I also like the "That's in the past" does relate to the Emperor's "What of it?", as you've brought up before.

Oooh I like the part about lying sincerely.

sob I'm bad at adding things to this since you guys cover so much and think it out so well BUT I did want to say that truly enjoy reading these. I'm sad when they don't show up a week since you all make me think about things in a different way and remind me of what I've forgotten. The little things in Geass are what make it such an enjoyable show for me and having this teeny little corner of the internet where there's no bashing or 4chan memes makes me glad when I'm brave enough to peek into fandom. a-anyway. JUST HERE TO SHOW MY SUPPORT CARRY ON ♥

Oooh I do love support. I wish I could do them every week too but if it my schedule doesn't allow me to post by Monday, I figure nobody will care afterwards so I keep thoughts to friends and stuff. But I'm glad all the discussions give fun and new insights. That's what these posts hope to be about.

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Yes yes. He's snapped again, like in the end of season one. He's losing everyone and i'm afraid he will lose Kallen, Rolo and Nunnally, too. I just hope that Suzaku will be with him in the end to save him. Because the path of King is solitude, if there's anyone who would stand beside him, that would be the knight.

Luciano is the man. He shall live on as the SPIRIT OF BRITANNIA!

I don't think Euphie, Clovis and Bartley will invite him to the tea party. :(

Luciano will just invite himself, that's how strong-willed he is...

**stars over his glazed-over eyes**

Oh Luciano....

Maybe Euphie should look into a rehab clinic for future departed KotRs....

That... that would be too cute.

She'd do it too.

Yeah, Euphie would be the kind of soul who would.

Maybe she'll save a spot for Lelouch.

lolololol. I don't know if Euphie's prepared to take on THAT level of challenge.

Gha! Is there any chance AT ALL Sunrise wants this anime to end somewhat happily? They hate us don't they T^T. OMG! Name me any other anime that's had this many tragic plot twists. Just when you thought Lulu's done gone snapped at the end of season 1, apparently they didn't think they broke him enough.

"I'm going to be cold and heartless and throw away my emotions!"

That should be followed up with "And that's when everyone died" and a big Mushroom Cloud rising up from Tokyo and Lulu's Crazed Laughing/Crying.

...I just wonder how they can pull happy ending out of this T_T

I kinda wish they had lulu told the truth about Geassing Euphie, being an accident and everything, but then I really don't think Suzaku would have believed him...or wouldn't want to believe him...

If Lulu would have told Suzaku the truth he would have just accused Lulu of lying and trying to manipulated him, so he lied making himself out to be the villain Suzaku has come to believe him to be.

But now I think Suzaku doesn't hate Lulu half as much as he use to...
But now thanks to Schneizel's piloting, Lulu now hates Suzaku as much as Suzaku hate him...It's a vicious vicious circle T^T

So tragic.

agreed, I feel my heart almost broke when I saw Lulu... cried. I mean after all pains he experienced (losing Euphie, Shirley, Suzaku, etc) and how he wished to protect his friends by lying, he now thinks that was bertrayed Suzaku again of all person. (not really bad If you ask me, <3 teh angst)

Somehow Lelouch probably understands, he didnt tell Suzaku because he doesnt want to burden anyone else. I wonder if in next ep he will lose Nunally too =(

Poor Lulu T^T He needs a hug...too bad most of the people that would give him a hug are kidnapped, dead or hate him by now...

I'm really mad they killed of Shirley now. She kinda annoyed me in season one, but then I was happy when she came around and was all like "Poor Lulu, he's all by himself...I wanna help him :D" but then they killed her off T^T

Oh god. If he lost Nunally he really would snap and kill everyone. She's basically the only think keeping him going right now

When that time comes, i want Suzaku to come and give him a hug (probably a kiss). If not, they should kill off Suzaku, too.

I've been looking forward to seeing your insight on the last episode! I always enjoy your commentary. :)

If he lied to Suzaku, there was less a chance Suzaku would question his principles and risk Britannia's anger.

This is something I did not consider when thinking of what Lulu's motivations were behind his little fibfest. I figured he lied as a way to atone (as in, stoically shoulder all the blame) for the messes he's caused, both actively (Clovis), passively (Shirley) and between (Euphie). Maybe he figures it will be easier for Suzaku to not know it was an accident. Maybe he would rather have Suzaku's hatred than his pity. *still think this* However, trying to protect Suzaku from Britannian wrath is not something I would have called. (Or am I misreading you--and you are saying more that Lelouch would not want Suzaku to know what really happened so that he wouldn't have to deal with his potential disapproval?)

I thought this episode was nice in that -finally-, Suzaku got to move from the rut of "I hate Zero/Is Lelouch Zero?/Kallen's cleavage, won't you tell me something!?" I think it will be interesting to see how things will end up now that the status quo has turned around again-- First season had Suzaku as "good" and "caring," but Lelouch as "angry" and "wrathful"; then R2 began with those roles largely reversed, not-so-subtly hinted at by the art in the ending sequence (L&S reversed as light and darkness versus S1). We even see Lulu actually growing into caring about others ("others" = "not Nunnally"), being less ruthless with his Knights, and the whole Shirley thing, etc. However, now it seems flip-flopped again, with Suzaku having more-or-less forgiven Lelouch (NOT Zero--he's still a liar after all), while Lelouch is left furious and betrayed, and since it's over his three major pings--Nunnally, Suzaku, and the Britannian royal family--there is a higher chance that he won't get over it before it has a chance to cloud his judgment and do something (I as a viewer and fangirl consider to be) stupid. I assume that CC will need to work her way in there somehow, but I can't help but think that it's going to need to be Suzaku and Lelouch working together in the end. ...And since Suzaku would need to take the first step in that (-especially- now), I am glad that he's stopped walking in circles (...kind of like what I am going on about...urg, MOVING ON)

Luciano amuses me! But I think that at this point in the series he is completely wasted--or should I say, he is a waste of time that could've been given to characters I care about. Random psycho characters are only interesting when you know -why- they are psycho and -what- they fight for. There isn't enough time for his character to be fleshed out before he'll be killed off. It does a disservice not only to him, but to whoever is stuck in a scene with him. If they wanna kill off Xingke, fine, but set it up where it doesn't seem like it was something thought up halfway through the season.

...So, perhaps I am just extremely bitchy, but this season (and Gundam 00 before that, for that matter) has seemed really poorly-paced and plotted. Last season, Lulu's line to Euphie seemed really--scripted? unnatural, as if it were a quick fix means to an end (since they knew they wanted Euphie to go crazy and couldn't be bothered to find the perfect way how). Lelouch sending Rolo after Nunnally seems the same way. Yes, there needs to be a Nunnally-Rolo confrontation, after which something important will be learned! Someone may even get shot at! But logically, it is hard to justify why someone known for tactical smarts would take a person whose very existence he resents--a kid with a history of shooting rivals for his attention--and send him off to get the person he cares about most in the world. Call me crazy! I just think it could've been framed better and ends up looking really lazy.

Randomly: forget why is Viletta alive--how the heck did OUGI make it--without even a band-aid, no less?

Oh, I think I didn't word properly. When I referred to why he lied, I didn't mean in that conversation, I meant in the past. There are theories on why he just never came out and told Suzaku who he was, even before he learned Suzaku was Lancelot's pilot. In this conversation, he's mostly lying for the other reasons mentioned above. Or at least that's my take.

Geass does love its role reversal. What with the black prince and the craaazy white knight. God, I hope they find a way to incorporate C.C. back into this. As much as I pine for the storyline to focus more on the personal matter of the boys, which I think is its strongest point (the personal), I don't want C.C. to be misused either. I am not so sure about the working together at the end though... I doubt Geass is that nice. But as long as the boys get some type of resolution, I will be satisfied.

I suppose Luciano could be interested if introduced earlier. Not necessarily to explain why he's psycho; you don't always need that in the villainous characters. But so we could see more examples of his psychosis and care about him as a character. To make a horrible comparison, we don't know why the Joker is crazy, but he's presented in such a way that he's interesting all the same. I am just tired of wasting time on meanlingless characters when Geass hasn't been paying proper lip service to its originals. I AM LOOKING AT YOU KALLEN AND CORNELIA.

I think there are pacing problems a plenty and lots of contrived aspects, but I am hoping Sunrise will do the series justice overall and finish up well enough for me to go back and BS the rest into making sense. XD

Yeah... Ougi did he shot.

Ahh, I see. Lying about being Zero...well, why -wouldn't- he lie about being Zero?

As for CC, they have come too far not to throw her in there. She and Lelouch are to be all each other has in the end, after all. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask before: what was your take on that room CC and Lelouch were in--the "soul" room where CC states that Lelouch must be important to her in the future and he was sent there to protect him or something? Do you think her trying to "protect" him could have anything to do with her memory loss, etc? or are my own memories just scattered and wrong? (probably...)

I am totally with you on Luciano--and Kallen and Cornelia, for that matter. Still, I am hopeful for the ending, since the last couple eps have been shaping up well--there's been (slightly) more focus on main characters, and there's been more of the wordplay that I noticed a lot of in the first season (cuts between characters either sharing lines, or juxtaposing completely different statements--we got some of that with Bismarck and Kaguya in 17. Randomly, I was very glad to see her running things in a calm and competent fashion... I am very worried for the US (UN? whichever) and the Black Knights, because Lelouch is not going to be in a position to run them since he isn't very good at throwing away his emotions. I am glad they've kept up the subplot of dissent stirring within the Black Knights, though it makes me sad since I am certain it will all end in tears )

THANK YOU for making this post, I was torn up yesterday after watching this episode [LOL] because I didn't know what to make of it. Your views about it were clearly expressed and helped me sort out my own thoughts about it, since it was so so so important.

Ah, Suzaku finally willing after all this time to go back on himself and work with Lelouch - that's what I didn't get at first, but now, with looking for a 'balance' I see that it was about compromise, and isn't that just what Suzaku's always been about? His total 'opposite' stance on Zero always seemed forced because of his emotional reasons. I liked how you said he's realized just how similar they are, and for the first time he's actually ahead of Lelouch, and Lelouch has always been the one who's had *him* figured out. Really, it's incredibly brave and perceptive of him to do that, to try despite everything, Lelouch should feel so lucky to have him [god, I love you more than ever, Suzaku]. But, what would their relationship have been like if it weren't for Kanon and Schneizel? Would knowing Lelouch was telling 'half truths' really be enough to satisfy him, and would he have truly forgiven him or would it be just a truce for the sake of Nunnally? My curiosity is burning!
[fic fic fic fic fic!]

Lelouch wanting to take the entirety of the blame was how I interpreted that scene too, it explains why he didn't say something like 'I take responsibility for it but Geassing Euphie was an accident'. I suppose Suzaku has had so much trouble believing he'd do it for purely selfish/malicious reasons all along [because it contradicts 'his' Lelouch of the past] might explain why he finds it easy to see through it, along with recognizing the eyes of a lying person as one of his own characteristics. Again, this scene highlighted their similarities very well.

I'm hoping...That somehow it will be proved to Lelouch that Suzaku didn't plan this before the end of the series, but tragically when this happens it might be too late. I really want a moment that focuses on all that could have been and how far they made it , if it weren't for that oh so typical TWEEST at the end. Now Suzaku's the one who is sad. I'm absolutely terrified for Turn 18. Thanks again for making this post!

I think Suzaku was looking for a reason not to hate Lelouch, and he does know the power of Zero. Suzaku, first and foremost, wants to protect those important to him and Japan. Like Gabi said, it sounds like he was planning on using Zero's influence, but Suzaku wasn't talking about this like it would be final. And I love the way you describe Suzaku's actions as brave. I think they also show him trying to be the better person here. He has every reason in the world to hate Lelouch, but he is struggling to find a way not to for both the sisters and possibly himself. Before 13 and this episode, I would have been more reluctant to say that, but I think a major reason Suzaku is so very enraged with Lelouch is because it is Lelouch who hurt him and those he cared about. His friend. So whether he would have truly forgiven him, I would say the seeds were there at least...

I love when the boys reveal themselves to be so very close to one another in terms of personality/goals. It always was this way; they just both refused to acknowledge it. I'm glad one of them is at least.

We'll see how decent Sunrise feels like being to us when it comes to future revelations.

Yes yes, I agree, it sounded like he was implying something very temporary but the potential for true forgiveness was certainly there. Maybe it wouldn't have been the same, but they would have had something. *nods* He really did have every reason to hate him, and this could make it both harder and easier when it comes to forgiveness. It runs so much deeper because of their friendship, and as usual Nunnally would be the one to bring them together. Suzaku...Really did what he did against all odds where many others in his situation would have told Lelouch to shove it. And by his voice Lelouch sounded genuinely touched. Asadsdf emotional rollercoaster!

Ahh I love it too, it's part of why their relationship is so interesting huh? All this 'recognizing the eyes of a lier' really brought back all the other moments which show how they're always tied to each other. If Sunrise acknowledges the wishes of fangirls at all [who else buys all their CG tat?] then I'm sure we'll get some kind of satisfaction, fingers crossed.

I can't think of anything really profound to say that hasn't been said, but my fangirl heart really, really wanted to hear Lelouche finally snap and shout at Suzaku that he cast the "live" geass to save his life.

"I did it to save you!" in sexy anguished Lulu voice...mmmm....

But of course, it doesn't happen.

Gosh I've got no depth on this but I loved reading this. ALL OF IT. Cleared some things up for me, gave me some things to think on, and gave in more than I would have thought. I agree on practically everything.

My thoughts before I watched 17 were 'wtf Suzaku is going to snap and things will only get worse.' About halfway in I'm really relieved it's not turning out that way but Lelouch really had changed but he kept to his walls.

I mean, he had practically lost everything else and was teetering on the edge with meeting Suzaku, gambling it all but despite that he still found it in him to half-lie so that no one else would fall into this blame. He was placing it all on himself even when Suzaku demanded the truth. In a way it was, but gosh there's alot more than I thought behind it. o.o;

Somehow I liked how Suzaku was trying to be the better person but Lelouch somehow bested him for some parts until the 'YO SUP WE CAUGHT YOU' part. That was a major kick in the pants. As stated before, Lelouch was already teetering on the edge and they just push him with that, setting it up with Suzaku, his best friend as the villian. I'd like to think there's a chance both of them will find out the truth but I doubt it.

Um, I don't know why I typed all that but as I said again I loved reading your thoughts on it and everyone else's.

Nunally and Rolo confronation.

Am I too late for this? Well, I read your every post about Code Geass R2 episodes, and the reason why I keep it on I think its too clear that I no need to mention here.

What you said in this post I'm totally agree with you. These two boys are agonizing enough because of their friendship. Sometimes, I hope they not even know each other from the beginning. But it's also true that because they are friends so that they can do things the ways they are doing now.

About understanding, I believe they can understand each other well. Because when we do care for others, we will try to know and understand that person as far as we could. Lelouch & Suzaku are always doing the same thing. They strive to understand each other. But one thing we always miss, that is no matter how hard we try to understand, there's always has limitation as except our ownself, no one can understand us better.

Ps: Sometimes I scared to reply your post since I guess you don't quite like me/ my words & ignore my message. Sorry, just wanna say out my feeling.

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R2 Turn 17 Discussion: Fragile lives, shattered dreams

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