R2 Episode 2 Discussion: Prometheus

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I am late with this. I have some crappy reasons, but I also have my reading a variety of takes on the episode since whoa talk about a mind trip. I'm still not sure what half of the stuff I'm writing here means, and more than ever am hoping for some great input. Also, remember how long the last post was? Multiply by at least 10. Nayami loev the talking points this time around. But I won't lie. This rundown is almost completely character analysis. That being said...

We all remember the rules of the last discussion post, yes? About the no character-bashing. THEY ARE SUPER IN EFFECT HERE. (For the uninformed, bashing counts as "So and so needs to die" or general name-calling/insulting of any kind. The point here is discussion, not ranting.) Play nice people. Oh and because it came up last time, please don't bring later episode spoilers into these discussions. I don't read spoilers for a reason.

Now without further ado:



Shall we follow the episode's lead and begin with Kallen? A lot of character development going on here. I loved her scene with Lelouch, where she's trying to reconcile how she feels about Lelouch and her loyalty to Zero. I don't think I've ever loved their dynamic more. Seeing how upset Lelouch was at the idea that Kallen had lost her faith in him and his teasing her about back-talking to Zero. They are precious. A popular subject of controversy in this scene is Kallen's line about being Lelouch's slave. I don't think that translation and Lelouch's subsequent concerned reaction match up, as pointed out by Celiss at GameFaqs. Her version of the translation is more toward "I want to believe in you... that was the reason I put up with being a slave" (referring to her undercover bunnygirl job -- also implies that she's been working there waiting for Lelouch for some time). I am also more willing to side with this since it's more consistent with Kallen's characterization, and I think Lelouch would have a sharper reaction otherwise, considering how he corrected Urabe for saying the Black Knights were merely Zero's pawns. More on that later.

On the duality, I'm intrigued. Everyone in Geass seems to thrive on disassociation, even when it falls apart in front of their very eyes, but Kallen's is quite possibly the most special of them all. And Lelouch plays up to it, even going so far as to use "watashi" when he asks about her trust, as noted by another fan. Is it manipulation? Let's hold off on that until we get to the Lelouch segment of this write-up. I'm curious how long Kallen's going to be able to keep up this duality about her leader. Her "I want to" in response to Lelouch's questioning her trust was so beautiful. And yes, the reaction to the not!flirting was ADORABLE. Why, Lelouch, are you trying to have hormones, you sexy devil you? More love to Kallen ready to sacrifice for Lelouch at the end there. I suppose I can forgive her for ditching Lelouch in the cave. Kallen obviously had some shaky feelings to deal with, and there was a gun in her face. I still mrrr a little since bastard or not, Lelouch is her fellow classmate and her teammate, who may I add, did save her from Suzaku in 24. But yeah, people get freaked and the situation was just a little... awkward. I'll let it sliiiide. She won me back when she did the whole bunnygirl thing to save Lelouch's ass. Also note, most honest conversations in Geass happen when a weapon (be it gun or mech) is pointed in your face.

Speaking of gun pointed in face, it's Suzaku's turn. Now, I will be honest. I was somewhat lost here so any take is appreciated. What I will present is a compilation of various opinions (sapphira_angel, kadekmoment, realms_of_life and sephyelysian). First of all, if nobody expected Suzaku to be vicious, they're kind of missing out on the whole male grieving process. Guys tend to express pain in RAGE. So there's that. Not to mention that Suzaku is so used to internalizing everything in his boku identity, whereas his ore persona is the exact opposite. Suzaku is furious with himself for being able to stop Euphie's death or Lelouch's "corruption" so yes, all of that hatred and anger gets shifted onto Lelouch.

The question that comes into play is what happened to that rage between the roaring of Lelouch's name and the disarming shot. Some suggest Geass threw off Suzaku's aim, further fueling his need to ditch the bomb, but each time Geass has come into play, the series has given it special attention, especially with Suzaku. For this reason, I'm inclined to believe that even though we don't get a clear shot of Suzaku's eyes during the shot, he was acting of his own volition. Some Suzaku fans even prefer this interpretation because the whole appeal of ore!Suzaku is that he takes action and doesn't waffle. And there was clearly no waffling going on here! Suzaku wanted to take Lelouch in. Tackling that thought process is where things get tricky. I'm right now denouncing the rosy happy fangirl belief that Suzaku allowed the Emperor to geass Lelouch to effectively "kill" Zero but spare Lelouch. Sorry gals. That assumes Suzaku long knew about the Emperor's geass and plotted this all out and yeah, while he's picked up some scheming abilities, that's really reaching. But there is still much to ponder about why Suzaku would show little reaction to the very obvious fact that the Emperor has a geass and is going to essentially mind-rape their captive, friendship aside. Adding to that is the trade for power. This is the first time we've seen Suzaku make such a move, as his advancement has, up until now, been through Zero's influence. Ironically. I admit I wince a little at the "scheming" that seems present here because I have never thought of Suzaku as a schemer. But then again, this is Suzaku, the phoenix who destroys himself continuously only to be born anew. Perhaps the Suzaku we have now is neither and both ore and boku, as well as something else entirely. Not only that but Suzaku has learned.

This is where I make the possibly insane claim that Suzaku's present thought processes are frighteningly close to Lelouch's. We know that Suzaku is willing to use a situation to get closer to what he's after. Hmm, where have we heard of that before? (Lelouch's plan to use Euphemia's trust to destroy the SAZ and her reputation and then later using her death to advance his cause.) We know he is willing to wait. Pardon me while I BOGGLE at the notion of reckless Suzaku WAITING. Ok, done now. (We've seen in episode 24 that Lelouch is damn good at biding his time, setting up all his geass measures and bombing plans in advance.) And theoretically we see Suzaku now seems to buy into the notion that only power can fight power. Still set on "changing the world from within." More nodding to my belief that this Suzaku is a recreation of all he previous was. But gee, that line of thought is not familiar at all either. "The war will end when someone wins" anyone? Also, as others have pointed out, Suzaku seems to be leaning more toward "the ends justify the means" rather than his usual "the means justify the ends." But with only two episodes and hardly a consistent scene to work with, all of this is open to change.

So why the coincidental shift? I actually had something on this, something about a loss of identity driven by the loss of constants connected with his past and present. But I'm less confident in my analysis after reading some others. Because mine lets Suzaku off the hook, says he's confused and not entirely responsible, and I don't think that's entirely fair to his character. Suzaku may know damn well what he's doing and what he's striving for, and with only choppy scenes to work with, I think making him the poor lost soul is premature. "I have no regrets because we're friends" speaks clearly to that.

This doesn't mean I don't think Suzaku isn't lost in someway. The look in his eyes when he tells Lelouch that yes he is selling him out is a dead give-away, as others have said. I want to point out, though, that when Lelouch asks his question about "selling out your friend," he has no delusions or idealistic beliefs about the state of their relationship. He is angry and just wants to hurt. It's clear that both toss around "friend" as more of a threat or an insult than its previous meaning, a perversion of the word. But yes, Lelouch had no doubt what the answer would be so any whimperings over it are misplaced at best. I grow tired of "Poor Lelouch. That was so meannnn. ;o;" There is also Suzaku's matter-of-fact/detached manner throughout the scene. Seriously creepy. And well done.

But the Suzaku we later see post-flashback is another shift. Though considerably more serious than boku!Suzaku, we also see him react to things such as the Emperor telling him about his weapon. I'm going to take a quick tangent and say I want to know why talking about killing God is all kosher now. Either Suzaku is a damn good actor or he knows that questioning the Emperor is NOT A GOOD IDEA. I also like someone's suggestion that Suzaku has found another father figure. That's so friggin' twisted. I LOVE IT! You took the respect Lelouch never got from his father, Suzaku! Back to topic, others have pointed out that Suzaku is not exactly surprised to hear that Zero is back, indicating that he suspected this would happen eventually. It is Lelouch after all.

Also let me take a moment to WTF at Turn 1's "I will be the one to kill Zero" and the KotR's "Wait Zero's alive? Whoaaaaa." Explain that one, Geass. I guess Gino and Anya just weren't you know LISTENING. Or it's something Suzaku says so often that they've learned to tune him out. Or it was from a later scene. In either case, it didn't make sense so no cookie for Geass. And with that, I'm done with psycho-analyzing the Knight of Seven.

All that's left for fun with characterization tiem is Lelouch. Oh Lelouch, where do I start with you? By no means the CHALLENGE that is Suzaku, but as I have told people following Lelouch's characterization in Turn 2 was like trying to catch the ball in a game of Keep Away. My main issue is Nunnally. Is the distance enough to tamper with the same impulse that caused him to all but abandon his Black Knights to their deaths to find her? Lelouch comes off as mostly rational and calculating, something we've seen time and time again get shot down whenever he can't assure himself Nunnally is safe. It goes without saying that, with everything that's happened, Lelouch is possibly depressed out of his mind. Hence why he so relishes his defeat of the governor-general and his systematic annihilation of the Tower of Babel's forces. Control is Lelouch's lifeline. And where does his chat with Kallen factor into all this? Lelouch wavers on a few sides throughout it, calling her on abandoning him and playing to her emotions while at the same time, teasing her and covering up her ridiculous outfit. Some has mentioned the latter was more of a sensible than a caring thing. You don't go around wearing things like that. How much of their interaction is manipulation to recover his assumed place? Note, how Lelouch never actually tells her whether he geassed her or not; he just says he didn't geass her to feel the way she does about Zero. And I did find something a bit freaky about the "Be proud" dialogue.

Part the two of Lelouch. Now I have my own interpretations of each of these, but because I want unfiltered opinions, I will leave them out. Did Lelouch miss in the cave face-off or did he give up his kill shot? Is there a link to "I lost to my former self... To Suzaku?" What is Lelouch referring to in that quote? What does it mean to his mentality? How does it connect with Turn 1's "Can justice coexist with friendship?" I bring this up because, twisted or not, Lelouch is no less focused on Suzaku than he ever was. The preview for Turn 3 has him talking about needing to overpower both the Emperor and Suzaku. I realize there is the issue of Suzaku being the Emperor's right-hand man more or less. But let's also not forget Lelouch bitching at the Vincient, absolutely appalled that anyone but Suzaku would dare interfere with his plans. That anyone but Suzaku would dare pose a true challenge. There is also the possible inside joke of Lelouch recalling what happened in Episode 2 and being like "Oh hell no! This is NOT going to happen again."

Moving along, the Vincent is a god-modding bastard but I love. Yes, I realize it's not a looker. Nothing could ever be as sexy as Lancelot. But teleportation is hella sweet, I admit it. Mmm, stolen geass technology. And sure, we can cry about Urabe here. He came to the same conclusion as Ougi but with more kamekaze. Thing that was really interesting about this fight was Lelouch's sudden need to convince his knights they weren't just pawns. I know people have made this argument for Lelouch before, but he's never had to do it himself. He obviously realizes just what position he's in and needs to lay things on the line to hold onto what he has. More yay for crushing the governor-general. So cool. Oh and before I forget. ZOMG GUILFORD!! Happy emoticons go here.

I am still excited for Rollo, even more to see Lelouch try to win him over. Also for Gino who is the hottest and yet cutest thing to rock Geass' world. "King of the Elevens!" So much hah. Give me moar, Geass. Moar! If you're wondering why Gino gets less play in this review, it's mostly that Turn 2 kind of temporarily broke my fangirl button. I imagine it will return soon enough.

Questions that make no sense aside from the ones above?

1. How did C.C. override the Emperor's geass? THIS IS A BIG ONE.

2. When did Lelouch geass the Chinese consulate? And while we're on that, when did he have time to make his new outfit?

3. What's with all the waiting?

4. Why are we still following this damn parallel structure?

Comments

[ksuden.livejournal.com]

I have not seen the new season for the moment and I have not really read this post - not seriously - but...

Q : How did C.C. override the Emperor's geass? THIS IS A BIG ONE.
A : The same way she is not affect by Lulu's Geass ? Like she has an immunity against Geass ?
(now, I don't know if she is supposed to be affected, since I have not the episodes. God, BT is so slow)

[fujiappletan.livejournal.com]

"Poor Lelouch. That was so meannnn. ;o;" There is also Suzaku's matter-of-fact/detached manner throughout the scene. Seriously creepy. And well done.

To me it feels like every time Lelouch tries to use the "friend card" he really is trying to USE it. And Suzaku feels it too; that Zero is trying to use his friendship with Lelouch as a way to gain power. I remember Lelouch was not pleased with Euphemia for trying to "recreate" the past, so the idea of him clinging to the idea of his friendship with Suzaku being the exact same as before is just.. no. Least not now. The "I lost to my former self" could be the him that still had the idea that Suzaku would take his side and join him; but now Lelouch is wiser since he knows Suzaku will not take his side hence the "you'll sell your friend out" blahblah. Hm.

I fangirled so HARD over the "Be proud" lines. I just love Kallen's devotion to Zero and now that she knows his identity I'm just dgjdgdfgklkg*___8

2. he totally has like 94859485 spares of his outfit rightttt.

[moonloop.livejournal.com]

My favorite scene is when Lelouch and Suzaku are present in front of the emperor. You could see the tension and stress that once two friends who have turned into enemies heated up. And how Lelouch still cares for Suzaku as a friend and struggles with Suzaku's choices. Love love love.

I am rather interested in these questions as well so I hope someone can answer them or perhaps the new episode this Saturday.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

1. CC has 1337hax!Geass skills. Besides, she can mindfuck with people if they touch her, so I'm sure this has something to do with it.

2. Obviously, he did it when they first arrived. He played the "Look! Over there!" game with his knights and then did it...CC made it? Remember, he had two outfits, as revealed in Season 1 when CC dressed up like him that one time.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

While I wouldn't say every time, I would say any time they are doing their face-off thing, yeah. I hold nothing against Suzaku for telling him flat-out "That's right." Lelouch was being vicious and got exactly what he expected. However, I do think that up until now, the friendship has been a constant trip-up in Lelouch's mentality. We'll see how he fares now.

I admit I only liked it briefly, but it's growing on me.

2. lol

[lulu-quality.livejournal.com]

On Kallen, according to a magazine she was only working at the casino for the mission, but even so, to put herself in that kind of dangerous/degrading position takes GUTS!

Anyway, all spoilers have been incredibly ambiguous or don't really say anything, so no one really knows what will happen from here on out :D

Oh, and Gino is love. Pure unadulterated love. We need to see more of him now. Also, I was confused about the "I will kill Zero scene" too. I'm just going to go with that it was a forward shift in time after episode 2, but put in episode 1 to give it even more momentum. But still, Geass staff, why must you mess with our minds? >_>

[nayami.livejournal.com]

... That remains to be seen and is one of my many questions about Lelouch's character. Lelouch is, however, clearly pissed at himself for not taking proper action against Suzaku when he could have. Still, as I said, he is ever as fixated.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

1. There is an issue with C.C. being able to remove geasses. That issue being EUPHIE. So I want a better explanation from the series. Plus, they've still yet to connect that kiss.

2. That would have been mildly amusing.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I want to believe that... I do.

[darkfox200.livejournal.com]

1. Probably the Geass immunity? Or maybe people like C.C. can only remove the effects of the Geass if it's something like the Emperor's or Lelouch's (which looks like it's something that needs a target) as opposed to Mao's Geass, which is like... constantly active and doesn't have a specific target (since it'd be pretty hard to remove mind reading from everyone in a 100 metres *can't remember specific range* right?)

2. Geass is special like that [/lame] And obviously, C.C. made the outfit for him during the year he was away (she probably got the measurements for his clothes from the time she spent in his room)

3. The plotline must keep people hanging on till next week, till next week, till next week-

4. Because parallel lines are easier to draw?

DX Answers are made of fail and suck, but I fangirl Guilford and Gino with you.

=darkfox200

[nayami.livejournal.com]

1. Again, I raise the Euphemia issue when ability to remove geasses comes into play.

2. C.C. can make clothes... ?

4. THIS IS ULTIMATE WIN! XD

Yay my meager fangirling for the episode remains intact!

[darkfox200.livejournal.com]

Maybe she has to come in contact with them in some form? 80 After all, I don't remember her actually going close enough to Euphie to touch her.

... without leaving the Gawain open to attacks, because we all know Lulu can't pilot well.

Your icon is distracting. D8 I kept typo-ing everything because I couldn't stop staring.

=darkfox200

[darkfox200.livejournal.com]

1. *points up* I'm impatient. ;;>_> And probably wrong, but I tried.

2. Or she got someone from the leftover Black Knights to make it? I'm sure they have a seamstress in there somewhere Zero may have made his own cosplays, but I can't imagine him spending time making them for everyone else

4. y ty. 8'3

=darkfox200

[nayami.livejournal.com]

2. I bet he still designs them all because he's a freak like that.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I swear, if they don't drop the damn parallel structure already I will start to get annoyed. :)

But thanks a lot for your comments. I was kind of refreshing my friends list waiting for them. XD I think Suzaku has grown a lot in this last year. And he reminded me that 1) he was the son of a politician who actually was trying to "teach him something"; 2) he has been living closer to the court for a while. Maybe he got more "civilized" after all, and maybe some old childhood logic finally kicked in. You said that Suzaku is learning to think like Lelouch, and I agree, but I would like to suggest that he is learning to think like his own father too. Both Suzaku and Lelouch hate their fathers, and somehow it wouldn't surprise me if both of them were in the process of becoming the objects of their hatred - this has been more obvious when it comes to Lelouch, but Suzaku might be on the same path. Also, I have this pet theory that Suzaku resents his loss of status as the Kururugi heir almost as badly as Lelouch, but we will need to watch further and see what happens. Next thing we will see Suzaku being cute and proper and all theories will be shot dead. XD

My thoughts on Suzaku's reaction to the Emperor's Geass was "he doesn't care anymore." Or maybe "he doesn't want to care anymore". He knows something BAD will happen to Lelouch, but I doubt he knew anything about the Emperor's powers or his plots when he entered that room. I think Suzaku believes he has the right to make Lelouch suffer, not only because that is the "only way", but because of Euphie. I think it is important that the authors bothered to put Lelouch into a restraining suit, but Suzaku is still wearing his Knight outfit and Euphie's feathers on his chest. I think that the ghost of Euphie is extremely important all through those scenes. Euphie represented Suzaku's (illusory) chance of salvation and now she is gone. Maybe it is too early to tell, but my hutch is that this Suzaku no longer fools himself about his sainthood.

Anyway, yes. Suzaku needed a father figure, didn't he? Their relationship is like a double loss for Lelouch and I'm in love with that. XD "Changing this world from within" notwithstanding, I think that might explain just a little why he behaves so meekly when Charles shows him weapons of mass destruction and whatnot. Suzaku wants to be a good child and he loves, loves to be part of things.

I think the absence of Nunnally is extremely tricky. I agree with you - a strictly IC Lelouch would be more concerned. I keep waiting for more blatant signs of misery. Or maybe we will see that in the future. I guess the sound episodes will probably deal with that, since they tend to be more introspective.

That's a random guess, but I think Lelouch is waiting for the Japanese. Turn 1 told us over and over again how he despised the Japanese for their passivity. And now he has invited them to make justice with their own hands. Area Eleven is getting more and more interesting by the minute.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Still, what unnerves me about that option is that she wouldn't tell Lelouch. I do think Lelouch confides in C.C. so that Lelouch was upset about Euphie would be obvious. And it wasn't like Euphie was going to shoot either of them, not that shooting C.C. ever matters. I can't abide by that rationality at all...

[darkfox200.livejournal.com]

2. XDDDD "I MADE THIS ORGANIZATION, AND I'LL BE DAMNED IF I LET SOME AMATEUR DESIGN OUR UNIFORMS! *sketch/draft*"

=darkfox200

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think as much as Lelouch is a bastard, there are one point or two where he has not compromised so far. His friendship to Suzaku is probably one of the most important of them. I think he was not manipulating Suzaku at that point. The time of convincing was long gone. I think he meant what he said.

I actually liked the way Suzaku said "That's right." It was angry and painful. XD

[darkfox200.livejournal.com]

Y-yea, Euphie is a touchy issue. And I've always imagined that Lelouch confides in C.C. in a similar way that Mao did, because she's really the only one who could probably sympathize for them. (how she puts up with it, I will never know)

But all the ideas I have regarding Euphie are half-baked and don't make sense to me after I look them over, so... 8X *fail*

=darkfox200

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

LOL. It can't be worse than if she is hiding him the fact that his mother is still alive. Now, if that is true, Lelouch and C.C. will have to have a looonnng talk. XD

[nayami.livejournal.com]

D'awww don't say that I'll get all shy and hide. But yes, your thoughts of 'son of the Prime Minister' Suzaku are actually what made me withdraw my initial gut reaction to martyrize Suzaku. It helps that your version is complex and all around fun to prod at. The fathers thing is a good point and yet another of the boys' bizarre commonalities that boils down to having them see the worst parts of themselves in each other. This theory of bitter Kururugi heir is also intriguing and should at least be explored in fanfiction!

I side more with "doesn't want to care anymore" since Suzaku's all detached throughout. Oh I'm pretty damn sure he wanted Lelouch to suffer since Lelouch did destroy virtually everything he believed in. I forgot to add in my post about Lelouch's refusal, even amid everything, to explain what actually happened. Lelouch seeks no forgiveness, and since Suzaku claims the same, they have that between them. Good detail about the ghost of Euphie, especially with him still wearing the Knight emblem.

Oooh I really like that interpretation! Very "Oh you're showing me special stuffs! Love me, Daddy, love me!" And yes, Suzaku always wants to be involved, even though he used to hold himself back.

Yes, his speech was much more sincere than the one from 23. And he is emphasizing that he doesn't just want to use them. He wants to see what they will do on their own as well. Perhaps this ties into what they are saying about next episode.

[sapphynashi.livejournal.com]

Why am I talking about CG instead of preparing for my presentation tomorrow?

Hmm, were the Knights that shocked at Zero's announcement? Too lazy to rewatch the scene right now, but I recall Gino making a casual comment about Zero being flashy or whatever, and Anya saying something about ants, but the only shock was Suzaku's initial head-turn and then he went deadpan serious!face on me. So I think they were informed of Zero's return before the big fancy broadcast.

Ugh, let me see if I can convince my brain to take on Suzaku again.

I am thoroughly intrigued by the idea that his current thought process is taking after Lelouch's. Though, it also gets me wondering whether Lelouch's will change in turn - not drastically, I'd say, but maybe more of a balancing out between the two of them.

...

No, I don't think I am up for more Suzaku analysis tonight after all. Maybe I'll recharge tomorrow.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't think it was manipulation so much of "Well, think on this, you bastard!" Again, it was said to hurt. Angry Lelouch is angry.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Gino does ask Suzaku if Zero isn't supposed to be dead. Because Suzaku's response is this very emotionless "Yes."

I thought you would like that one. It was the result of me and a friend trying to figure out what the hell Suzaku was doing just after watching the episode for the first time or so. We were going over all the things that were WRONG about him, and I realize "Omg he's acting like Lelouch!" Reverse would be cool, but I don't know if they're going to take that path.

And I look forward to more analysis. I'm eating this stuff up!

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* I like the way you put it. It would be the kind of reaction he would have.

I think watching Lelouch's eyes in that scene is a thing of beauty. The anger is almost always directed at Charles. It reminded me of his reaction when the mobster mentions the Emperor in front of him in Turn 1, and Rollo goes >_<

You know, that also got me thinking: well, what if that was not the first time Lelouch gets his memories re-written? If Charles has this power, anything goes in terms of plot. No fact is a real fact, and even Lelouch's childhood memories might be relative. Fascinating stuff.