R2 Episode 5 Discussion: Knight takes Queen

[nayami.livejournal.com]

First, I am only posting this because I see the other discussion post carries a specific topic. I know that more than a few of us have been anticipating this episode since spoilers leaked, and it definitely didn't disappoint. But I really wanted to get into some issues with the boyas, as always. Also I have to take this moment to say that you really shouldn't expect to be too surprised if you're reading spoilers. I read them too, and I wish I didn't. Le sob. Blah blah be nice to characters/opinions and no mentioning spoilers. It's party time Ashford style!



I thought the episode did an amusing job of balancing Lelouch's bitchiness (knocking C.C. into the tomato bin and closing it, snarling at her for running out in the open, plotting to catch Suzaku, delivering the verbal smack-down to Villetta and continuing his mind games with Rollo) with his utter fail. I will never get tired of watching everyone outrun Lelouch. Actually, let's take a moment to examine some of that bitchiness in more detail. I was a bit irked that Lelouch went for Villetta so suddenly since it seems a bit sloppy for him. He has a good piece of information yes, but he's better off continuing to play his game, especially now that he has Rollo on his side. That said, his delivering of "Happy Birthday" was delicious. He's gambling too much on Villetta's fear that the Ougi thing will destroy her; he should know better than to underestimate Villetta.

There is also his hypocrisy about secrets. I love the disparity between his casually telling Kallen that it's all right for him to have a few secrets after she questions his not telling them about the pilot of the Vincent. It's not even that Lelouch never keeps a few secrets and not even that those secrets got the Black Knights captured in the first place. It's that in the same episode Lelouch acts utterly disappointed that Ougi would dare keep the Villetta thing a secret from him. I always knew Lelouch was a hypocrite, but now I can claim it without shame. Still, I forgive his bitchiness because he's Lulu and he's been mind-raped, lost his sister and thoroughly messed things up based on one case of very bad timing. I think he's entitled to a little bit of snappish behavior. He's also an arrogant ass at times. As long as he's not too sloppy, I'm happy.

I do whine a bit about Lelouch not being made to stand up for his actions at the Black Rebellion. Way to let your leader off the hook, lemmings. I swear Zero has maybe five competent people on his team and the rest are canon fodder. Maybe not to him but to everyone with a brain.

Slick move putting in the shot of the wall and the hatch marks that just trail off. Limit to geass or did something happen to our little Carve-tan? I know everyone is reading to go "OMG Suzaku is screwed," but keep in mind the creators say his geass is still going to nail him. I also am wary about this "limited" geass notion, as it goes against everything the creators have said. But we will see.

I do enjoy Rollo wavering between wanting to shiv Lelouch and wanting to kill Suzaku. The scene where Rollo tells him to hold the knife carefully while Suzaku does his stalking thing is so adorable. Speaking of the stalker, the way he holds authority is all new levels of hot. And as I crazy-theorized earlier, he is acting very Lelouchesque, right down to his wording at times.

I cannot believe the creators were evil enough to barrage us with more adorable chibi flashbacks before getting into the game of lies and espionage that was this episode. Some have pointed out it's quite telling that Lelouch and Suzaku never complete their statement about what they are to each other now. I do wonder if Lelouch truly thought he could fool Suzaku since he was so confident that he had Suzaku just because Suzaku came to see Lelouch. I am it was obvious why Suzaku given the seat next to him. He had to know Suzaku was checking on his memories; he saw him stalking him. Why didn't he act first? Was he just that damn cocky? I am not sure if this was more foolish trust in the friendship or what, but it seems a dangerous dangerous game for him to play. And he lost. Guess the worst enemy is most often the self, huh Lelouch? I also love that Suzaku is smarter than Villetta when it comes to Lelouch, not at all fooled by Lelouch's ruse.

Suzaku's ability to shift between his personas blows my mind. It's better than ever. The difference between Rivalz hanging off him and Gino doing the same is worlds apart. I think Suzaku's reaction around people is another result of not wanting to lose anyone, not wanting them to get close to him. But he's willing to fake at school because that is what everyone expects. And Suzaku has always been good at faking. But I do believe some of it is sincere such as his trying to reassure Milly that Lloyd is just a bizarre person. And of course, his love for Arthur, who still shows his appreciation in violent ways of cute. I will insert squeeing about KotR here, but really we need some more scenes with Anya before we can actually say anything about her. Gino really is Tamaki with a mecha. WHAT A TERRIFYING THOUGHT. Him and his love of commoners.

Ok so Nunnally. First, I am tired of seeing "Suzaku used Nunnally." Truly tired of it. And here is why. I don't think Suzaku is using Nunnally, but he is using her importance to Lelouch. I think Suzaku's goal to become Knight of One and take Japan, especially if he has someone who is sympathetic toward the Japanese on his side (similar to Euphie), has merit in his mind. I also do not believe Suzaku would hurt Nunnally. As he says, he already lost enough people. I also debate on the "important friends" line because both blogs used "friend" and Suzaku only has two people he "lost". I think the line refers to Lelouch and Euphie only. Which gets into issues of double mentality, similar to Kallen. I might elaborate on this later. But it plays back to what happened in the throne room. Note, I find Turn 1 entirely inconsistent with anything else we've seen thus far so aside from the big picture, I remove most of it from this analysis. In either case, I don't think Suzaku is out to hurt Nunnally. I think he truly wants to work with her to fix things. There's also the fact that only the Emperor can appoint Governor Generals. Suzaku might have made the suggestion, but he only has so much influence. The Emperor would have known as well. But yes, Suzaku is using the relationship to place Lelouch/Zero in check. As makes sense since he needs to stop Zero by any means possible. He doesn't believe the Japanese need Zero; they can be saved without his methods.

Also in response to people's whining about Suzaku's goals being foolish and ill-thought and liable to only be a band-aid... umm we're supporting someone who thinks he can overthrow an entire empire... and then what? Suddenly free people? What about the EU and China? What about the Britannia momeland mainland? Both players have extreme goals, and who's to say one has more likelihood than the other. Perspective as always.

About the "lost friend" line, I do believe Suzaku thinks Lelouch is beyond redemption, that Zero has destroyed him, and that it is Suzaku's fault as well for not stopping him when he could have. (There is debate on this issue, regarding Suzaku possibly using Nunnally and his words about Japan not needing Zero as a warning to Lelouch to BACK THE HELL OFF before he has to take action.) I also believe that Suzaku was prepared to let Lelouch live without his memories. Since "Zero" was effectively dead. I also note that after telling Kallen that "This is Lelouch," his words to Lelouch are "Zero, I will stop you." He only refers to him as Lelouch again when he is answering his question. Note: "I told you, Lelouch. I would change Britannia from the inside." His expression. It's almost like he's not even talking to him, he is repeating something he always told his friend. I think Suzaku has distanced the Lelouch he knew from Zero to a point. This is no longer the friend he cherished. He cannot get him back. So yes, he has lost him.

And what of his talk about having enough military power? With Nunnally in place, Zero is well and truly stuck (ehem people talking about Lelouch possibly killing Nunnally scare me because NO). Why does Suzaku need full strength? By the way, I totally laughed at him chewing out Gino for not bringing Lancelot. YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY. What is Suzaku's role in the plot to catch C.C.? What was his role in the plot to do so by killing the bait: amnesiac Lelouch? Of course, this depends heavily on whether my suggestion that Suzaku would have let amnesiac!Lelouch live is true. I also throw the possibility of the end of Turn 1 being a flash-forward into this mix since it would be the only way of retaining consistency, with Suzaku's declaration of being the one to kill Zero. One thing's for sure, Suzaku is surely the trump card that was sent after Lelouch. What does the Emperor have in mind?

I will now take this moment to laugh at the hilarious fanservice and then urge Kallen to call Lelouch on his bullshit more often. Seriously. Fight the good fight, Kallen!

Comments

[nayami.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of people who are, in fact, intrigued by Suzaku after this episode, including former haters. I think this episode gives a whole new perspective on Suzaku and people who hate him at this point are hardly going to have their minds changed regardless of what he does. They hissed and snarled just because he was even at the end of Turn 4. Suzaku is either too naive or too evil to them unfortunately. But I always appreciate more people who are willing to understand the lad.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Also, it's important to remember that Lelouch wants a revolution, not a reform. The Knight of One is part of what he wants to destroy. Because he wants a revolution, Nunnally as the Governor General makes things extremely tricky for him. I agree that his surprise is more at the fact that Suzaku would try something like that. Suzaku always catches Lelouch on the blind side, which is actually fascinating to watch. XD

[nayami.livejournal.com]

How delicious! I love it!

[nayami.livejournal.com]

It's because Suzaku can be truly unpredictable when he wants. But yes, why the thought would have never crossed Lelouch's mind is because of his strive for revolution. He doesn't want any of the old system; whereas Suzaku just wants to work with what he's got and fix it. Even after all that's happened to him, he is ever the idealist.

[celemna.livejournal.com]

That he does that, in my opinion, kind of nulls it for me. In the end though we have to look at it; Would Euphie have done with that? The whole thing behind it for her was so that Lelouch would never be harmed and while he intended to use her, he lightened up once he got there. That's what I find so tragic about it all, it seems so bad and they can judge because they always take the route of self justice, but then they decide against it. He tried to stop her..I think I'm tearing up here.

I'm glad I'm not considered stupid man, XD. I think everyone's got problems but if you just say NOM NOM HE'S A BASTARD and don't look at it from his POV, you can't appreciate other people's actions, the character itself, and sometimes the deeper motives of the stories. Especially Suzaku and Lelouch.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I will never get why people hate Geass characters or take sides. They are not black and white and I don't think they are supposed to be taken this way. Also, :)

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

I freely admit that we need to see more KotR interaction before making any definitive characterization judgments. It was just the impression I got from the tone of the scene. : )

As I said before, I'm not certain that Suzaku knows his real self either. He's shaped his personality around his goals instead of vice versa. Even his love for Euphemia was in large part about the future that she represented.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Now, that makes me wonder, because if Suzaku just wanted to shelter only Nunnally, he would never bring Lelouch back into her life again. I think he would just say he was dead, or gone, or in Jupiter, or whatever. Bringing Lelouch back into her life after one year of absence kinds of make me think of my BACK THE HELL OFF theory. Suzaku's show is aimed at Lelouch too, and he expects a reaction from Lelouch - one that won't traumatize Nunnally too badly, so maybe, just maybe, destroying Zero does not equal destroying Lelouch as well.

Too far-fetched? Vague? Fangirly? XD I sincerely don't know, but I fail to believe that Suzaku would bring Lelouch back to Nunnally just to erase him from her life again. That would be awfully cruel and Suzaku has never been cruel to those he considers innocent (his first scene, getting shot for protecting Lelouch, is a case in point).

[darth-teca.livejournal.com]

Beautiful analysis of what's going on so far and I agree with a lot of it.

~I was a little startled at how quickly Lulu went after Villetta. It felt a little rushed. Personally, I don't see it as a very smart move; even if Villetta DOES somehow cooperate with Lulu, all she has to do is wait till the right moment to betray them agai. Even if it did come out about her and Ohgi, it would be her word against their's. She would just have to do something sufficiently pro-Britannian to outweigh any doubts.

~In regards to Ohgi, I think Lelouche is finally having to deal with the emotional consequences of actually getting to know the people who work under him. He was so single minded in R1, he never really thought about the lives of the people under him, or that they might have had lives away from him. To me, it was nearly the same reaction as when he realize Kallen no longer trusted him completely.

~I think he didn't act against Suzaku right away was he just simply never thought of the fact that Suzaku would ever do anything directly related to Nunnaly because he didn't see an option where Nunnally would not be put into harm. While Suzaku can "use" people, he doesn't do it the same way Lelouche does. Suzaku seems to always be weighing the benefit of the many against the pain he would cause the person. Since Nunnally is as you said, "sunshine and bubbles" Suzaku would be even less likely to do anything to directly harm her. Lelouche didn't really take into account that Suzaku and Charles have had a year to plan out what to do if/when Lelouche gets his memories back.

~I completely agree with you that Suzaku's speech was a warning. I would say that Suzaku is setting up the perfect trap for Lelouche, one that was obviously well thought out long before it was actually started. Lelouche knows that Nunnally will be a fair and just governor, which gets rid of the support for his rebellion. Along with that, Nunnally is the one person in the world that he won't go against or put into danger in any circumstance. If Nunnally actually becomes governor, there is no way he could continue his rebellion against Britannia. Either he stops Nunnally from becoming governor or he is going to have to give up. I think this is Suzaku's last attempt to appeal to Lelouche before it becomes all out war. That while he is climbing the ranks, Nunnally will take care of the people of Japan, but he is fully ready to crush Lelouche should he choose to do something. He's got Lelouche pinned between acting against three of the tops knights of Britannia or acting against Nunnally and is merely waiting to see which fate Lelouche chooses.

~Suzaku switching between his two faces is very Japanese to me. It's really common to hear my Japanese friends say that they are completely different people around their friends than they are in public. There is a strong idea in Japan that you repress your true feelings and emotions to fit the current situation at hand; the whole "public face" and "private face." Honestly, since I'm an American, it just blows my mind when I actually see it in action or how it's taken in stride by many people in Japan. Suzaku is just DAMN good at it.

~I agree that Lelouche is woefully short sighted. Most of the people under him are not loyal to HIM, they are loyal to the fact that he is the only one who can help them win their rebellion. Once he frees Japan, I doubt most of them would be willing to continue to wage war against Britannia. Where does that leave Lelouche in his quest to bring down the entire kingdom?

~I think that that is also the reason that Zero is not held more accountable for his actions. The simple fact is, the rebellion NEEDS Zero. Kallen even nods to herself when Ohgi says that, as if reaffirming her own conviction. There have been many times throughout history where the Japanese have been amazingly pragmatic about their situation, even though it might not be perfect. There are a lot of popular Japanese culture references running through Geass and I think this is another one of them.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

OMG, I know. That HAD to be CLAMP influence there. (Give us a Shirou, Geass!)

I call Xingke Li-kun now. :D

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

True. He is terribly shaken, has been shaken for a while, and I don't think his reaction will be 100% logical. Personally, I think he will end up hurting her feelings anyway and being even more miserable because of that(he needs to put up a good show to dodge Suzaku's trap and Geass loves torturing its main) but we will find out soon enough. :D

Suzaku, I think, is not in the mood to believe in Lelouch. He has called Lelouch a liar and a traitor over and over again, and that is really ironic because heee, Suzaku. :)

I LOVE the idea that Suzaku does not wish to repeat his sins and maybe that's why he spared Lelouch. It's interesting because back in the beginning of the first season, Suzaku told Zero he would arrest him. It's very true that he identifies Lelouch, or at least Zero - if you wish to indulge on the double mentality theory XD - with his father, and that may or may not make him pull the trigger in the end. I think it's a Geass rule that you tend to end up doing what you feared/hated most. I blame the Clamp genes. XD

[lulu-quality.livejournal.com]

According to the last Newtype, Euphie was basically branded a traitor, stripped of her status because of her massacre (meaning she was made to be the perpetrator), and was executed by Brittania for her actions. And people wonder why Suzaku is so pissed at Lelouch >_>

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

You know, I am always amused by a select few in the discussions of the latest episodes.

Last week it was all "RARRGH RAGE! LELOUCH YOU BASTARD!"

This week it's "OMGSUZAKU! YOU LITTLE BACKSTABBING TRAITOR BITCH!"

...ahem.

I agree with Suzaku telling that to Lelouch as a final warning. I mean, this is Suzaku we are talking about here. I don't know why Lelouch even thought for a second he could fool him.

And now I'm worried about what will happen with next episode and Nunnally. D: I think her probability of death just shot up by 50%.

Oh, and seeing Rolo working for the Dark Side this episode made me very, VERY happy. :D

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Wow, wow, wow, awesome news. XD

[vicks111.livejournal.com]

♥ we are more likely to have a Sakurazuka XD
Actually, any reference from clamp is love ♥

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

lol. I love your theories, especially the ones about Suzaku's flexibility and the Black Knight's opinion on Zero being a exacerbation of a stereotypical Japanese's trait. Thanks for them. :)

I don't think Lelouch is short sighted tho. The CG background shows us that Britannia has to deal with rebellions and wanna-be powers on a regular basis, not to mention the corruption and internal struggles between its own leaders. The successful independence of one important colony would set the Empire on fire EXACTLY because people don't think it is possible. Also, he is dealing with the Chinese, although we don't know what he is up to. We know that Lelouch wants the world. Thanks for making me realize he has his secret agendas too. XD

Like Nayami, I blame his failure to take him time with Villetta on his nerves. I'm actually impressed that he has not made more mistakes.

[saitaina]

I think it might be something like in Death Note.

Uh...no.

The Death Note rewrites a person's very fate and destiny, it takes away everything that was ever planned for them after 40seconds-28days (whatever you wrote).

The Geass works on mental impulses, changing the thought process to Lelouch's whims.

They are no where near the same, either in methodology nor reaction. The Death Note will make you do something no matter what, so long as you're physically able, the geass is fightable (though I'm guessing strength of will comes into play, as in Euphie wasn't strong enough).

No one as suggested (as far as I can see) the most obvious explanation: Lelouch's geass didn't work for a year. It's highly likely that a continuous geass would have also stopped, as it had nothing to 'fuel' it. So the instant Lelouch's memories were wiped clear and the geass shut off, Carve-tan stopped carving, which makes it intresting that she stopped mid carve.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

I love your theories, especially the ones about Suzaku's flexibility

My brain stopped there. XD Thanks for the amusement.

I think Lelouch has plans to free Japan, because no one else thinks it can be done at this point. Once Japan is freed, he can use that as a base to destroy Britannia, possibly by allying himself with the Chinese and the EU.

And I disagree with you. I DON'T think Lelouch wants the world. I think he wants to destroy Britannia simply for revenge, and to finally one up his father.

I have a theory that this is all about Lelouch hating and fighting his father, not anyone else. Suzaku just got in the way of his fight and pissed him off.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

But then how does Suzaku's "live" Geass that's supposed to screw him over factor into this?

By your theory, it should have simply ceased to exist then. :/

[sapphirus.livejournal.com]

Speaking of Suzaku wanting to change Britannia from within, I think it's a bit of a tricky goal he set himself there. With the emperor still on the throne and his policy of 'the will will perish, the strong will survive', I'm not sure how well he'll succeed. There's the whole mentality of the britannians too to change. They seem to be brainwashed to think themselves above all other cultures (except perhaps China and EU).

:/ Unless something incredible happens, I think I prefer Lelouch's method over Suzaku's to change Britannia and prove to its people that they are not as high and mighty as they believe themselves to be.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Well, he said he wanted the world in 25. XD He might be lying tho. We never know.

Totally agree with you on this all being a huge fight between Charles and Lelouch. But it is also my pet theory that Lelouch is his father's true successor, in more ways than he is comfortable with.

[saitaina]

By your theory, it should have simply ceased to exist then. :/

I never said the geass didn't 're-start'. Think of it as a power switch, you switch it off (or force it off by erasing the fact it ever existed), the electricity stops, the lights go out and nothing can change that, until you flip the switch back on. My theory is that the geass acts the same in reaction to the Emporer's geass.

There's no proof as of yet, as too many things could have came into play for Carve-tan to stop carving, the attack on the Acadamy when the Black Knights took it as their HQ, the subsequent flee back to Britania, hell, she could have died in the assult on Tokyo Settlement just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I think my theory is the most likey answer.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Of course he is; out of all Charles' children, Lelouch is the most like him. I'm sure Charles knows that and thinks it's HILARIOUS. (And maybe is a bit proud of his little Lulu-kun.)

Even though the Charles vs. Lelouch plot is BEAUTIFUL and provides for lots of angst, I actually like the "Charles is grooming Lelouch for the throne" theory, too. It would just be so...awesome in that pure Geass way if Lelouch finally thought he had one-upped his father...only to realize he was just playing into his father's hands.

[darth-teca.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you that Lelouch is Charles' successor. My own personal belief is that Charles somehow (Geass? V.V.?) knew the Lelouch was going to be his successor and all of this is to shape Lelouch into the perfect king. Suzaku was just an added and surprising bonus, but I still think Charles is merely using Suzaku to see how far he can really push Lelouch. My own theory is that at the end, Charles is going to declare Lelouch the king if Lelouch wins. Now THAT'S when I would be interested to see what Lelouch would do; he'd be given the world but by doing so would validate Britannia. It just seems so... Typical of a Darwinian system that the Britannian system seems to be and the fact that everything that goes wrong in Lelouch's life feels suspiciously planned out.

[darth-teca.livejournal.com]

Yeah, being in Japan really just puts a whole new spin on Geass that I never thought of until coming here. XD

Mmmm, I agree that Lelouch probably has plan B in mind to do when Japan is actually free, but part of me would be surprised if it was with the Black Knights. Then again, rewatching Turn 5, Ohgi says that Japan is the hope for ALL of the areas, which is starting down that slippery slope of freeing all of them. If Lelouch can actually get them to that point, it would be amazing. I see him having a problem with Kallen following along with that, but I won't go so far as to say she wouldn't.

Yeah, I agree with the whole fact that Lelouch is scrambling to get back on his feet, which is exactly what Britannia-tachi want. As I said, they've had a YEAR to plan out this contingent plan and while Lelouch is ridiculously smart and cunning, even he can be pushed into a corner when caught off-guard and that is what they are banking on, I bet. Giving Lelouch time to scheme is the worst thing you can possibly do.