Code Geass R2: NOT LIKE PLANNED

[spleener.livejournal.com]

So I'm surprised this hasn't been posted to the comm yet. I'm sure there are other links on this but I'm going to go ahead and post the ones from Koda's blog:

http://trainwreck.ggkthx.org/2008/08/19/taniguchi-on-geass-not-as-planned/

http://trainwreck.ggkthx.org/2008/08/20/changing-the-time-changing-the-show/

tl;dr- the planned story for R2 had to be scrapped entirely due to the fact that R1 was on a late-night thursday slot and R2 was moved to a prime time Sunday slot, mostly because they couldn't write R2 with the assumption that the audience had seen R1 before. Among other things, the subplots involving Cecile's relationship with Suzaku and Suzaku's connection to Geass (ie why he went catatonic at Kaminejima when the elevator thing activated) were basically dropped, and Rolo was added in.

One should note that this is far from the first time that a show's direction has been influenced by executive meddling, hell, Geass R1 had a lot changed because it was originally slated for a prime time slot and moved to late night, and probably wouldn't have been as good as it wound up being if it weren't for that.

And this is actually a pretty amazing analysis of the situation I just saw posted on /a/:


Rolo is meta as fuck

Rolo is an expression of Taniguchi’s frustration at not being able to develop R2 his way.

Rolo was forced into the story as part of the “re-envisioning” of the show that led to many changes, some of which suck ass. Taniguchi is aware of this. And he is aware of his own situation: forced to work with the damn thing anyway, for the profit of his superiors, no matter how he feels. I’m not making him out to be a great creative mind of a martyr, just noting that he kind of feels a little fucked. Hence, the place of Rolo in the story.

He’s unwanted. Defective. He’s made into what he is because external forces, in this case the Geass cult, decided on it. He does not start out with a will of his own, and his role is to deceive. This is how Taniguchi sees R2: an imperfect creation forced on the viewers, trying too hard to be liked and accepted. No doubt he sees himself as a “disposable rag” at the hands of the executives, and the show as possibly equally forgettable by the viewers. And then, of course, Rolo as the representation of the spirit of R2 kills something that was positive about R1.

So Rolo’s death is both an embodiment of sincerity and deception. On one hand, Rolo accepts his status as a tool but still strives toward what he believes is good in the end. A fairly plain admission by Taniguchi that his work has its failings, that his own capacities are limited, and that in spite of this, he will still try to work around the obstacles and make it good. The very removal of Rolo might even suggest a graudual return to his original plans. But on the other hand, the scene is highly emotionally manipulative, and a decent amount of effort was put into it, in spite of possible dislike for the character. And people seemed to drink it up. That in itself is a fuck-what-you-think-you’re-going-to-watch-this-shit-anyway at the viewer.


Personally I agree with the idea that Taniguchi's been doing his best in spite of being fucked over by the execs, it seems like people are finding out he was pissed off about this a year ago just now and assuming he's still pissed off and has basically been phoning in all of R2 and therefore every story development they disagree with is due to that. I for one like the current R2, and I honestly think Taniguchi and the rest of the team have gotten over what happened and are happy with the R2 they've created.

That said, I'd love to see the original plan for R2 in some way, perhaps as a manga?

Comments

[tanaiel.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I think everybody is exaggerating.
So, the story got scrapped. And?
Sure, it's not the most pleasant thing, but it happens.
And I'm convinced that the most central themes are still the same.
No reason to asume the story is any better/worse because of that. I'm sure Taniguchi did his best.

Still, it's shit that you screw a story over because you want to change the timeslot.
I'm satisfied with R2 but hope, like you, we'll get the original version in some way.

And is it confirmed that Suzaku's Geass plot was dropped? That's crap.

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/detail.php?board=916407&topic=43047093&message=491851283)

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

Adding my own rraghhh and grrragh about the changes is pretty much useless at this point, though I'm upset about the dropped plots (especially considering the foreshadowing in S1 that. . . is now completely pointless). Suzaku is generally the one fucked over in development, though I believe Kallen's backstory was also eliminated from the plans.

That said, the excuse they gave for Suzaku's inhuman abilities (in light of dropping the Geass connection plot) was absolutely priceless.

"Oh, he's just a superhuman."

[tanaiel.livejournal.com]

That said, the excuse they gave for Suzaku's inhuman abilities (in light of dropping the Geass connection plot) was absolutely priceless.

"Oh, he's just a superhuman."

Seriously? Duh.

[nekoi-echizen.livejournal.com]

i see, this explain cause this serie have something wrong.. :/ I mean.. I feel something strange from this 2nd season. It's not like the first and if Taniguchi will do a manga with the original R2 I'll be very happy to read it!

[luinthoron.livejournal.com]

Explains the train wreck that is R2 quite well...

[rebmastu.livejournal.com]

The Geass manga running in Asuka right now is still in its early stages, and I'm starting to sense some deviation from that end. For instance, the Euphinator just kicked it month before last and the show-down between Suzaku and ledouche was significantly changed (Suzaku pined the douche down and shoved a fucking gun in his mouth), so we could see some proxy R2 win from that angle.

Cecile's relationship with Suzaku? Huh. Sounds wild.

[mei-yi.livejournal.com]

Gah, now I really want to go find the manga. Which one though?

[knittedninja.livejournal.com]

That's interesting... I really wish he could get an opportunity to develop the series as he wanted to.

[miasmacloud.livejournal.com]

I saw that thread on /a/ a bit ago, it's pretty much a spot-on and accurate analysis.

[chickee1.livejournal.com]

Hey, Fullmetal Alchemist is being redone as an anime again, so why not another as planned geass?

[crophecy.livejournal.com]

...it is?!

are they gonna start again from the beginning or just the part from the manga that differs from the original anime?

[neltis-screi.livejournal.com]

i knew it. the timeslot is a big big factor. i've always preferred CG at late night >.>

i still friggin enjoy R2 anyway, even if it's less awesome than S1, even if it hurts my brain orz i believe Taniguchi did the best he could to make the current as fun as his original.

it would be awesome to see the original story.

[konata-kawaii.livejournal.com]

I never knew that happened.
But seeing my fav character came out of it I can't really treat it as a bad thing haha.
It's amazing they continued it and made it good after all ^^.
In my opinion, this R2 is really nice too.
(Though I am curious what the original plan was (aww but without Rolo? D:))

[mossygirl.livejournal.com]

Kind of depressing to hear, but then again there's no changing R2 at this point, so I'll just be happy with what I can get.

It'll always leave me wondering, though -- just like with Escaflowne, which was originally planned for 39 episodes instead of 26. Can't help but wonder if it would have been better or worse.

[lark-aero.livejournal.com]

A lot of times, it's better that a series ends where it ends (just as planned!) instead of forcing itself to continue for more profit/etc.; the story's integrity and originality are risked.

With R2, I didn't even realize that something was wrong. I really thought everything was
intentional, and I still think it is. So that makes me wonder too, what was the original pitch supposed to be like.

I just feel sorry for Taniguchi and his characters, because ultimately it's his own vision that's getting stepped-on. A lot of fans are scapegoating and sticking blame onto easy-target characters. But characters are puppets for the written (epic/fail) story-line ಠ__ಠ

[shad-fg.livejournal.com]

Seriously?
I don't think R2 is as bad as what everybody is saying.
Maybe I'm reading too much into the negative connotations of everything and the negative comments that people are making but I liked R2's storyline like nunally's death for instance. Nice plot twist.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

I don't think R2 is as bad as what everybody is saying...

You're definitely not the only one. I also think R2 is pretty great. (Even though I don't believe Nunnally's dead XD)

[lark-aero.livejournal.com]

Well, this finally explains why EVERYONE DIES.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

More like the opposite for me.

I think these recent deaths are a sign that Taniguchi is taking the story towards what he wants, after the hijinks and general repetition of the first half of R2.

Death was not rare in Code Geass or anything.

[gdmcrjunkie.livejournal.com]

I really, really wanted my Suzaku-Geass explanation. *whine*

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

And what would happen if you do get it, even if in a different form or with less screen time?

Think about that for a second.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

Heh. I guess all our fears half a year ago about the new timeslot came true. I confess myself a bit annoyed, and I hope that Taniguchi and co. will be able to finagle some sort of resolution to Suzaku's (now nonexistent) geass subplot. Hell, I'll even accept a retcon at this point. Whatever.

I think we can all agree that R2 has...stumbled at parts, but it's been pretty good recently. And I think that no matter how eff'ed up the plot gets, the fanbase is large enough and smart enough to put our minds together to collectively explain away the incongruencies and...funny characterization of this season.

I really want to see the original plot, too. For my own curiosity's sake, I want to know the original explanation for Suzaku's hax, and really--Cecile's relationship with Suzaku? Lolwut? Now that just makes me feel like a gossip whore. =3 And for that matter, what's with the lady with the motorcycle? I'm guessing that got cut, too?

Anyways. I think the main message I'd like to convey is SCREW YOU, SUNRISE. Stop messing around with your directors. Just because of this, I now sorta want Taniguchi to pull an Anno, just to shit with them.

[spleener.livejournal.com]

Anyways. I think the main message I'd like to convey is SCREW YOU, SUNRISE. Stop messing around with your directors. Just because of this, I now sorta want Taniguchi to pull an Anno, just to shit with them.

Though it may not always be of this caliber, I'm pretty sure executives screwing around with the directors' own creative visions is the rule rather than the exception. Unless you're someone who always makes SUPER MEGA HUGE SMASH HITS they're not going to give you free reign to do whatever you want on their time/money.

Cecile's relationship with Suzaku?

I dunno if it was going to turn that way, but remember when Lloyd brought up him being a 'replacement' for someone else? I presume it was an allusion to that discontinued subplot. Aborted Arcs (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbortedArc) are also not unique to Geass, though.

[deadums.livejournal.com]

Aw, it's sad that some questions posed by R1 won't get answered. I mean, does this also get rid of CC and Marianne's connection, as well? Sort of shafts the audience that watched it before, but explains SO MUCH of how things have played out so far.

Meh, I can't say I'm not sad that these questions will stay questions, but that's not going to stop me from watching the rest.

R2 is too much Lelouch vs Charles, instead of Lelouch vs the World to me. I don't really understand what he will gain from killing him, honestly. I doubt it will shatter Britannia unless getting rid of Charles triggers 'Ragnorak' and all people with Britannian blood heads explode or something.

Does this also mean that the whole Who Killed My Mom scenario is gone, too?

&&& so longgg Suzaku's geass connection explanation. Sighhhh.

[spleener.livejournal.com]

I would presume that any plot threads that have been brought up since the start of R2 will be completed. We saw CC talking to Marianne in episode 7, and Lulu wanting to avenge his mother was the whole reason why Orange joined him.

[fox-holland.livejournal.com]

Everyone is crying

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

Uhm... Well, that certainly does bring some strange feelings. But honestly, as much as I would like to know what was the original plan, I've been thoroughly satisfied with R2 lately, so I don't really care. Who knows, perhaps I wouldn't even love it as much as I love it now, with all that crack and unexpected plot twists and one highlight after another and end of the world coming. I even like many characters' characterization more than in S1.

I don't really get a lot of the fans, though. After airing of each episode they always seem all hyped up and "Man, that was SOMETHING!", and when they personally don't like some of the recent development and something like this comes out accidentally right at the moment, they're suddenly all "I've always said R2 is totally screwed, let's burn it!"

Really fickle, I'd say.

[spleener.livejournal.com]

Who knows, perhaps I wouldn't even love it as much as I love it now, with all that crack and unexpected plot twists and one highlight after another and end of the world coming. I even like many characters' characterization more than in S1.

This is also a good point. How do we know that the 'original plan' was better than what they wound up making?

[susure.livejournal.com]

We obviously won't know (at least for a while?) if we would have preferred Tani's "true" vision of R2. There almost certainly will be people who don't. This kind of news just sends a ripple through the communities and stirs up anger that the R2 they're currently watching is messed up or some kind of deviation. If EoE was Anno Hideaki's true vision of the NGE ending, then I actually prefer the later episodes.

Personally, almost none of those supposedly cut storylines interest me in the least? Cecile and Suzaku's relationship.. Huh? Suzaku getting a Geass might EXPLAIN things, but not really in the context of Geass (which I always thought affected people's minds, instead of augmenting someone physically? "Nono, you just THOUGHT you saw me run sideways on that wall and destroy a gun turret with one kick >_>"). Plus I always considered Suzaku an opponent of Geass, who wouldn't WANT to have one himself, especially since it was the cause of Euphie's death.

But, I will say that I am very much missing some Kallen backstory. I actually think she's kind of an undeveloped character; considering how long Kallen's been around, she seems like nothing more than an accessory at some points in R2.

I mean, overall R2 definitely has a different tone compared to Season 1, but I've enjoyed it just as much if not more. When I was marathoning S1, there were times it lagged and I sort of considered dropping. But there wasn't one week where I wasn't hungry for another R2 episode. (Does that mean I have poor taste? ._.) Taniguchi should have trusted that fans would have followed R2 (isn't Code Geass's sales mostly in DVDs/merch anyway? Like even during S1 ratings were low, no? And do anime series ever really get cancelled?). I must still not understand how a changed timeslot suddenly insists that chunks of storyline has to be scrapped and redone; but obviously if you're moving to a more mature demographic you have more liberties with your content. That's not a bad thing..

O/T, but in response to new FMA- buh. o_o What was wrong with old FMA? I actually find the manga really hard to follow..

[susure.livejournal.com]

Oh, PS. I'm not a fan of when series split up their content across all sorts of media, what with the light novels and the picture dramas and the manga series with different continuities. It makes it hard to argue what's canon and what's not. I thought this wouldn't be a problem with Code Geass since it wasn't based on a manga, but..

[hopechan.livejournal.com]

God, I'm at once depressed and deeply satisfied to hear this. I would have liked to have seen what R2 could have been, but I'm glad that the show I loved so much didn't simply drop the ball - that there were other forces at work. Because I really fucking hate R2, and I really fucking hate the direction the show has taken, and I'm glad to hear that this wasn't the planned direction - that the show I once tried to push on all my friends wasn't supposed to turn out like this.

Would the other version have been better? Who knows? (ACTUALLY, I DO. CECILE/SUZAKU = WANT.) Maybe I'm naive to think that it would have solved all the rampant problems in this series. Maybe I'm naive to think it would have been better. Still, in the immortal words of "The X-Files": "Auto-erotic asphyxiation is an unpleasant way to go."

Um, I mean, "I want to believe."

[tungwene.livejournal.com]

I've felt at times that parts of R2 have been really rushed (the China arc, Orange's return and Shirley's death, C.C. and the cult etc.) and the show would've benefited from being a 39 episode long series like Death Note and Saiunkoku 'cause it seemed like there was a lot of interesting stuff going on that was all being touched on too briefly. Now I find the team had has six months to invent a new story from scratch and it becomes clearer to me why R2 is the way it is. If Taniguchi doesn't feel attached to his project anymore to the point that he's contemplating resigning all together and is just making do with what he has then it makes a lot of sense to me why the storytelling has been so messing. It's a shame though because ever since I watched Planetes I knew he was an amazingly talented director so I hope Geass is not the final straw that kills his career.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

What "six months"?

Six months after episode 25 was supposed to be the original airing date for R2, but you all know that it only aired much later.

[inastr8jacket.livejournal.com]

I'm a little miffed learning this, but I don't see it as a huge deal. I don't see why they couldn't add those subplots in somewhere else if they absolutely could not put them in the actual episodes. Like some people said, they seem a little irrelevant to the actual story, so why don't they just shorten them a bit and put them in a picture drama or something? Or manga, mangas are fine too.

I would have really liked those Suzaku subplots, especially since he seems to get little characterization in R2. And I like Cecile, so learning more about her would've been nice. And when they talk about her relationship with Suzaku is probably her motherly and protective side and how he might be a "substitute" for someone else. Damn, now I want to know. ;_; (Also, haha, I've always thought of Suzaku as the dark lord of physical strength just that strong.)

R2 hasn't been that bad, but I liked R1 far more. However, I've never seen parts of R2 as "forced action" (except maybe that mass of deaths we just saw), never seen Rolo as a "forced character" before learning about this or anything. Maybe I'm just not perceptive or they did a good job covering up or what, but R2 really hasn't been doing that bad.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

I agree with nearly everything you said ^_^

Although, other than the ones noted, I don't remember any more subplots that haven't been mentioned...except maybe the whole 'C.C.'s real name' thing. Still waiting to see what that's about, along with C.C.'s and Marianne's relationship. It would be a bad idea to drop those, I think.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

What bothers me is not so much this but what people are making out of it.

Celiss Galvea deserves all the respect in the world for her translations, but I don't think she's infallible in her assumptions. And if that goes for her, it goes for everyone else, myself included.

It's not Taniguchi who is saying that a specific subplot was cut or not. There is no "confirmation" of what was cut or what was added. People are just interpreting things that way.

It's obvious by now that some subplots are either outside of the story or will only get some time later on, but not everything is clear.

In the case of Suzaku's connection to Geass we did get some hints in season one, and it's very obvious that's it has not appeared in R2 right now, but it could show up in some form towards the end.

Why not? Nobody has seen how R2 will end.

And then there are things that fans wanted to see, but which didn't even have to be "subplots" in the first place. For example, what indication was there that Kallen's backstory would matter in R2? It didn't even come into play during season one.

The only thing related to Kallen was that kiss with Lelouch, planned for season one but cut while it was still airing. Yet in R2, she and Lelouch have plenty of little moments together, which shows that at least somethings did carry over. A kiss could still happen.

And finally, this all happened over a year ago. It wasn't like Taniguchi didn't have the time to alter his plans into a form that would suit the new time slot. He's also not giving the impression of an enraged man who hates R2 and doesn't like what he's doing now either. But some people are painting that picture.

I still think that if Taniguchi had the confidence to give this interview, and without breaking down in tears or something, he's reflecting on what has passed but is ready to finish the R2 story as well as he can.

None of this will matter to all the "R2 is a trainwreck" or "Code Geass (both seasons) is a trainwreck" though.

[susure.livejournal.com]

Might explain the decision to cut Suzaku’s relation to the Geass (which was supposed to have been something deeper than just “he has the potential”), Kallen’s father (and Naoto?), and Cecile’s relationship with Suzaku, among other things.

This was my indication as to what was cut (via the first link). This whole entry is about harmless speculation, so no need for you to take a passive-aggressive tone since, after all, you are free to speculate as well~

In response to comments you made higher up the page, I don't think it's possible talk about "Kallen's story/backstory" without including her family in some way. In R2, she continues to mention her brother (to Nunnally while kept hostage, and to Lelouch just last ep). She still looks up to him and thinks about him all the time. She also wants to liberate Japan for the sake of her mother who was addicted to Refrain. This happened in Season 1, so how can you say it didn't come into play? It makes her character. Plus her half Britannian status keeps coming up as well, "Which name will you choose, Stadtfeld or Kozuki?" The family thing is inextricable from her character. That's like telling "Lelouch's story" without mentioning HIS family.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I know this is new news to some so posting it does inform people, and my profession requires me to be a fan of the informing. That said, I'm pretty tired of focusing on what might have been. Where does it get any of us? Besides depressed. I say we either take the show as it is now and see what Taniguchi manages to deliver in the end or we live in happy denial world of S1 and make up our own ending. As someone has said, we have enough of a fanbase to BS/"interpret" the mess that R2 has been. If we still get a decent final product, none of this "could have/should have/would have" will matter. I'm iffy with R2 too, but I find dwelling on what we can't change just makes us more bitter toward what we loved.

Sigh, I just want to enjoy Geass again.

[klingon-jedi.livejournal.com]

At least it explains all the little WTFs we've all been talking about. It sure does explain the whole mindwipe thing and why it took so long to pick up on any thread like Shirleys. Given what they did with Suzaku, I see it was a very real possiblity that they could've kept her Geassed and happy.

It also explains why it got better as it went along.

That Rolo comparison is brilliant. I especially loved the line of Rolo killing Shirley representative of the spirit of R2 killing some of the spirit of R1. Trippy way of thinking about it.

I've liked a lot of R2, and don't really view it as a trainwreck. Though I will admit that there are parts that felt rushed or out of place. It happens to a lot of show (like how I couldn't put my finger on MF's Sheryl since it seems like quick rewriting was in play there too), and you've got to accept it. Still it's nice to know what had been changed and what not. Knowing that it's not 100% doesn't really makes me bitter, but I do see your point, as it is still a shame. I think they've done the best they could with the situation. At least it's not as bad as X-men 3. I wouldn't mind knowing just how much of the storyline is intact.

Who knows, if we're lucky maybe they'll do compilation movies where he can redo some of the iffier parts (like the bridge between R1 and R2, Shirley, etc).

[saverellawish.livejournal.com]

Well this explains a few things. Not that I'm complaining much either way. S1 was awesome, but its not like R2 hasn't been enjoyable. I am curious as to what the original plot would have been like, if it would have been less angsty at this point?

I'm rather disappointed to hear Sunrise made Taniguchi change things. Code Geass would have been epic either way, so I can really understand why they changed it.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

If anything, I'd think it would be even more angsty.

A "family friendly" time slot wouldn't mean more, not less, angast, you know?

The first half of R2 was far too cheery, I think that was the "problem", not the other way around.