Code Geass R2: NOT LIKE PLANNED

[spleener.livejournal.com]

So I'm surprised this hasn't been posted to the comm yet. I'm sure there are other links on this but I'm going to go ahead and post the ones from Koda's blog:

http://trainwreck.ggkthx.org/2008/08/19/taniguchi-on-geass-not-as-planned/

http://trainwreck.ggkthx.org/2008/08/20/changing-the-time-changing-the-show/

tl;dr- the planned story for R2 had to be scrapped entirely due to the fact that R1 was on a late-night thursday slot and R2 was moved to a prime time Sunday slot, mostly because they couldn't write R2 with the assumption that the audience had seen R1 before. Among other things, the subplots involving Cecile's relationship with Suzaku and Suzaku's connection to Geass (ie why he went catatonic at Kaminejima when the elevator thing activated) were basically dropped, and Rolo was added in.

One should note that this is far from the first time that a show's direction has been influenced by executive meddling, hell, Geass R1 had a lot changed because it was originally slated for a prime time slot and moved to late night, and probably wouldn't have been as good as it wound up being if it weren't for that.

And this is actually a pretty amazing analysis of the situation I just saw posted on /a/:


Rolo is meta as fuck

Rolo is an expression of Taniguchi’s frustration at not being able to develop R2 his way.

Rolo was forced into the story as part of the “re-envisioning” of the show that led to many changes, some of which suck ass. Taniguchi is aware of this. And he is aware of his own situation: forced to work with the damn thing anyway, for the profit of his superiors, no matter how he feels. I’m not making him out to be a great creative mind of a martyr, just noting that he kind of feels a little fucked. Hence, the place of Rolo in the story.

He’s unwanted. Defective. He’s made into what he is because external forces, in this case the Geass cult, decided on it. He does not start out with a will of his own, and his role is to deceive. This is how Taniguchi sees R2: an imperfect creation forced on the viewers, trying too hard to be liked and accepted. No doubt he sees himself as a “disposable rag” at the hands of the executives, and the show as possibly equally forgettable by the viewers. And then, of course, Rolo as the representation of the spirit of R2 kills something that was positive about R1.

So Rolo’s death is both an embodiment of sincerity and deception. On one hand, Rolo accepts his status as a tool but still strives toward what he believes is good in the end. A fairly plain admission by Taniguchi that his work has its failings, that his own capacities are limited, and that in spite of this, he will still try to work around the obstacles and make it good. The very removal of Rolo might even suggest a graudual return to his original plans. But on the other hand, the scene is highly emotionally manipulative, and a decent amount of effort was put into it, in spite of possible dislike for the character. And people seemed to drink it up. That in itself is a fuck-what-you-think-you’re-going-to-watch-this-shit-anyway at the viewer.


Personally I agree with the idea that Taniguchi's been doing his best in spite of being fucked over by the execs, it seems like people are finding out he was pissed off about this a year ago just now and assuming he's still pissed off and has basically been phoning in all of R2 and therefore every story development they disagree with is due to that. I for one like the current R2, and I honestly think Taniguchi and the rest of the team have gotten over what happened and are happy with the R2 they've created.

That said, I'd love to see the original plan for R2 in some way, perhaps as a manga?

Comments

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Perhaps it would have been great, we never know. What I would like to know is, in what part of the process of creating R2's storyline have they been informed about having to change a lot of things? If it was when they had practically thought it over completely, it would perhaps explain a lot of the plotholes, but as they still had the time to introduce a new character as important as Rollo, I'd say they must have known way earlier than it seems. We don't know how many characters/subplots would drop out of R2 had it not been rewritten - who knows, perhaps even no Knights of Rounds for us? No Anya (whose connection with Geass probably replaced Suzaku's?), no Gino or Gino having killed Kallen's brother? (OK, we don't know in what direction Gino will actually go... But I hope not this one XD;;) I would go without all Chinese federation, but you never know if this actually wasn't a part of the plan... Etc.

It just made R2 all the more surprising for me. By the end of S1, I would never dream of a developement like this - I was expecting that both Lelouch and Suzaku would become utterly dark characters, along with the tone of all show. I'm sure that many fans would love it, but as for me, I probably love more the way it is now. Apart from the crack and plot twists, I'm glad that neither Lelouch nor Suzaku have "lost their souls" so far, which (I feel) would probably happen very quickly in the "just-as-plannes" series. (Which is just a speculation, of course.)

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

She interprets for a good part of it, yes, but the direct quotes seem to point directly at the Geass subplot being dropped. And it's no lie that the magazine translations swapped from an overwhelming amount of "Suzaku has powers/Suzaku is connected to the Geass/Suzaku's powers were given to him/etc." to the half-hearted "just a superhuman" excuse between S1 and R2.

You're right, it could easily be a red herring. And really, I'd prefer if it was because ditching all the foreshadowing in S1 would be extremely disappointing. But considering that "it was too complicated" doesn't sound too far from the truth right now—considering the general discombobulation around the making of this season—I think it's safe to say that everyone's prepared for the worst scenario.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

I agree with nearly everything you said ^_^

Although, other than the ones noted, I don't remember any more subplots that haven't been mentioned...except maybe the whole 'C.C.'s real name' thing. Still waiting to see what that's about, along with C.C.'s and Marianne's relationship. It would be a bad idea to drop those, I think.

[tungwene.livejournal.com]

Taniguchi planned the season 1 ending with the firm belief that he could jump right back into the story 6 months later

Doesn't say in the interview/translation when Taniguchi got the news about Geass's new timeslot but regardless he had 6 to 9 (okay to allow some leeway since the article to say) months to rewrite the whole second season hence no wonder it's not as good.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

But, I will say that I am very much missing some Kallen backstory. I actually think she's kind of an undeveloped character; considering how long Kallen's been around, she seems like nothing more than an accessory at some points in R2.

Gah, that's so true! Poor Kallen deserves more screen time. I would like to have learned more about her and Naoto or just something along those lines...

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

It was promised in an early set of R2 spoilers—something about shifting Kallen's development to the second season, since there wasn't time for it in the first. I'm trying to track down the exact wording right now, but as you can imagine that's a bit difficult a year later.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

What bothers me is not so much this but what people are making out of it.

Celiss Galvea deserves all the respect in the world for her translations, but I don't think she's infallible in her assumptions. And if that goes for her, it goes for everyone else, myself included.

It's not Taniguchi who is saying that a specific subplot was cut or not. There is no "confirmation" of what was cut or what was added. People are just interpreting things that way.

It's obvious by now that some subplots are either outside of the story or will only get some time later on, but not everything is clear.

In the case of Suzaku's connection to Geass we did get some hints in season one, and it's very obvious that's it has not appeared in R2 right now, but it could show up in some form towards the end.

Why not? Nobody has seen how R2 will end.

And then there are things that fans wanted to see, but which didn't even have to be "subplots" in the first place. For example, what indication was there that Kallen's backstory would matter in R2? It didn't even come into play during season one.

The only thing related to Kallen was that kiss with Lelouch, planned for season one but cut while it was still airing. Yet in R2, she and Lelouch have plenty of little moments together, which shows that at least somethings did carry over. A kiss could still happen.

And finally, this all happened over a year ago. It wasn't like Taniguchi didn't have the time to alter his plans into a form that would suit the new time slot. He's also not giving the impression of an enraged man who hates R2 and doesn't like what he's doing now either. But some people are painting that picture.

I still think that if Taniguchi had the confidence to give this interview, and without breaking down in tears or something, he's reflecting on what has passed but is ready to finish the R2 story as well as he can.

None of this will matter to all the "R2 is a trainwreck" or "Code Geass (both seasons) is a trainwreck" though.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

I don't really get a lot of the fans, though...

I see that all over the place too. People calling R2 a 'trainwreck' or something to a similar effect, but then after an episode airs... Or there's always the classic 'I hate it, but I'm still watching it'.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

Suzaku is still pretty superhuman now, isn't he?

I don't know what his connection to Geass was supposed to be, nor do I know if we won't get a little bit of that anyways for the final arc.

But what I do know is: it's better for the show to end first.

I don't mean to say that nothing was cut or altered, just that people shouldn't automatically assume the absolute worst in each and every case.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

I have read that set. It's on Animesuki, I could post the link too if you want it.

It just mentions "Kallen's story".

Does that mean "Kallen's family?" I don't think so.

We know that a kiss with Lelouch was cut (in season one). I think that by "Kallen's story" they were (and are) referring to her relationship with Lelouch, not to her family as a whole.

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

"Kallen's story" is about as ambiguous as they get. It could be backstory, it could be her relationship with Lelouch, it could be anything.

That's an interpretation as well, isn't it?

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

More like the opposite for me.

I think these recent deaths are a sign that Taniguchi is taking the story towards what he wants, after the hijinks and general repetition of the first half of R2.

Death was not rare in Code Geass or anything.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

And what would happen if you do get it, even if in a different form or with less screen time?

Think about that for a second.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

The interview implies that the changes happened around the time Stages 24 and 25 were sent to a special screening, which was around July 2007.

R2 surely didn't air "6 months" after that.

That would have been the plan, but in reality it took a lot more time than that.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

True, of course.

But that means it's just as valid as the other option which people are assuming to be true.

[gdmcrjunkie.livejournal.com]

I...wouldn't be so curious anymore? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Though watching it would have been fun, at this point just a sentence or two explaining would be enough too.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

R2 is too much Lelouch vs Charles, instead of Lelouch vs the World to me. I don't really understand what he will gain from killing him, honestly. I doubt it will shatter Britannia unless getting rid of Charles triggers 'Ragnorak' and all people with Britannian blood heads explode or something.

I'd have to disagree. While Lelouch didn't say often that he wanted to take on specifically his father in S1 and talked about "destroying Britannia", there were signs that all his fight was actually very personal and that it's been just Lelouch X his father (who couldn't protect his beloved mother and sister, reasons for his existence) from the very beginning. They did foreshadow Charles's actual importance and the fact that Lelouch is a part of his "big plan" back in S1, which could well mean that this part of CG hasn't changed one bit. Also, if you remember episode 16 of R2, you'll see that Britannia shook a lot when the Emperor went only missing, let alone died.

so longgg Suzaku's geass connection explanation

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm mistaken, but have you actually remembered during watching R2 that Suzaku has some connection to the Geass? Haven't you kinda forgotten about it already? It's just that I haven't seen anyone mention this for looooong months. But I suppose that now everyone will go all "Those bastards, I haven't been waiting for anything else!!!" But perhaps you really were, no offense :)

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

What I'm saying is that if there is a chance for it to show up, even if just with a couple of phrases saying "Suzaku is AAAA because of BBBB", or in a Sound Episode or Picture Drama, people shouldn't give up hope entirely beforehand.

Taniguchi didn't say exactly what was cut. It's just being assuming that everything has been absolutely cut just because it hasn't had screen time yet (which may change, or it may not).

[susure.livejournal.com]

Might explain the decision to cut Suzaku’s relation to the Geass (which was supposed to have been something deeper than just “he has the potential”), Kallen’s father (and Naoto?), and Cecile’s relationship with Suzaku, among other things.

This was my indication as to what was cut (via the first link). This whole entry is about harmless speculation, so no need for you to take a passive-aggressive tone since, after all, you are free to speculate as well~

In response to comments you made higher up the page, I don't think it's possible talk about "Kallen's story/backstory" without including her family in some way. In R2, she continues to mention her brother (to Nunnally while kept hostage, and to Lelouch just last ep). She still looks up to him and thinks about him all the time. She also wants to liberate Japan for the sake of her mother who was addicted to Refrain. This happened in Season 1, so how can you say it didn't come into play? It makes her character. Plus her half Britannian status keeps coming up as well, "Which name will you choose, Stadtfeld or Kozuki?" The family thing is inextricable from her character. That's like telling "Lelouch's story" without mentioning HIS family.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

Exactly my words. (I also had that sweet "trainwreck" pet-name on my mind when writing the comment XD;;) I guess that everyone will now enjoy their bashing to the fullest, but in next Sunday's discussion, you'll see next to none (as usual).

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

That "indication" is what Celiss Galvea believes. That is not Taniguchi speaking about those subplots. If it were, I'd just join the crowd and shut up.

What I meant by not "coming into play" was the fact we didn't get anything at all about Naoto himself (he's dead and Kallen looks up to him with admiration. Nothing else) or Kallen's father (what does he do? where is he?).

They didn't suddenly burst into the story as characters or anything.

People were assuming that Naoto would show up alive (though he still could...if he's Kannon like miasmacloud says in a somewhat joking manner) or that Kallen's father would be present.

I don't think that was necessary or that it needed to come into play.

Mentioning her family doesn't mean that they needed to actually play a part in the story, beyond her own motivations.

[susure.livejournal.com]

Well, as you said, figures in her family randomly showing up would not contribute much to R2 at this point, but all I meant was that I still feel as though she's become a secondary character as the story stands (I think the hostage taking was a means to keep her out of the action since they didn't know what to do with her). If, originally, there was some form of development in regards to Kallen that was cut (flashback, or anything) I would have enjoyed it if it had been included.

It's true nobody here has the last say on what was going to be part of R2 and what wasn't, but I think most people are just talking about the "what if" side of this information.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Also, I think the 'Rollo=Taniguchi' analysis really topped that. Perhaps it's pretty well-thought, but it's not like Taniguchi wrote that. It's just a fan's speculation, but many people here seem to have adopted it immediately as if it's an official statement or something. O.O

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

I would have also liked to see some flashback or whatever else was planned (though it's not like the show was already scripted when the changes were made), if it helps, but what's done is done.

In terms of the overall show, despite her kidnapping the story in R2 is still giving her relationship with Lelouch some time every so often. Probably more than C.C. too, who is arguably more important even if the memory loss is keeping HER out of the spotlight too.

Enough that I think something will have to happen on the romantic level (like the cut kiss) between Kallen and Lelouch. Even if it doesn't lead to a final pairing.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

I second that. But I guess that many people will now think that every subplot that hasn't been concluded yet will never be, and instantly put the blame on stupid producers from Sunrise XD;; Huh, perhaps it would've been better if we hadn't found out about this at all.