R2 Turn 21/Character Discussion: Shades of Gray

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I wasn't going to address this episode. As I have told my friends, there is so much here that simply isn't explained. That is why this analysis may be wildly different from any of the others. It does not study the episode per say but instead how people view its players. As usual, please please please do not spoil for anything beyond 21.



We all know how Geass loves its surprises. Still, I feel they are dangling us just for shock value now, and it's a little nerve-wracking, especially when it comes to character analysis. So this is where I will place the blame for so much of fandom's reaction of late and not on the theory that maybe some people just don't get the idea behind Geass. Is it crack? Certainly. Can it be train-wrecky? Without question. But for all its problems, one truth remains: When Geass is bad, it's REALLY AWFULLY BAD but when Geass is good, it's AWESOME. And what makes it awesome? The mere fact that it twists and questions the mere notion of perception. I have long argued there is no good or evil in Geass. That is the point. And 21 may be the best example of this concept in a while.

Lately, I have heard/seen a lot of "OMG CHARLES AND MARIANNE ARE SO EVIL." No. They are not. They are simply two individuals who made a choice. They wanted to save humanity, unite it and eliminate conflict. But some may argue that conflict is the essence of human nature because conflict represents choice, free will. Lelouch presents another take on this with his explanation of why people lie: Because they have a purpose. Still, who is to say that peace/safety is not worth the sacrifice of free will? A parent limits a child's choices to keep them from danger. Noble intentions. Ones that come from the heart. Marianne and Charles wanted a world of peace and unity. And to achieve it, they made choices.

No, the point behind the parent scene, which I will admit was baaaaadly paced and at times incomprehensible, is not to go "EVIIIIL" or even "oooh that's why Lelouch is messed up." It is to show a parallel. A parallel that Lelouch sees. Lelouch sees his parents actions as selfish and disregarding the thoughts of others, corrupting their ideals. But Lelouch also feels that he has done the same and resents himself for it. "Yes, just now I came to know myself." Again, whether Lelouch or his parents are right or wrong doesn't matter. What matters is how the characters see themselves. And in this instance, Lelouch sees himself as in the wrong. He doesn't force God to bow to his will, rather he implores, he begs. It's a wish, a request.

Now as to whether Charles and Marianne were bad parents. Oh god yes. Terrible. They abandoned their children, just as Lelouch says. But keep in mind, Lelouch is also a bad friend. He leaves those worried about him behind, he kills those they love and he makes life-altering decisions for them without their consent. Lelouch is a terrible friend. But this doesn't mean Lelouch doesn't love his friends; nor does it mean that Charles and Marianne didn't love their children. We get that from the scenes we do see of the family. That is a loving family. Ideals simply were given greater importance. So it is with Lelouch.

But this is where the tricky part comes in. Does that make Lelouch good or bad? Should we side with him? Does it matter? Again, we have a character who clearly loves people to obsessive levels, whose "dying" thoughts are only of them, who advocates choice (young Lelouch choosing to get his own food and choosing to defend Nunnally by himself; older Lelouch choosing Geass and also withholding on Geassing eternal obedience... before he goes nuts), who protects people (lying to Kallen to keep her away) and who is very much still a child. But the same character is also selfish (using love to justify imposing will over a person's future), hypocritical (denouncing others for living based on ideals when he does the same, urging others to choose and still using Geass to rob choice), murderous/vengeful and a terrorist. That Lelouch is a hypocrite is an essential part of his character. It is also why Lelouch, nor any of the other characters in Geass, can be judged with a moral compass. Their beliefs are lies to them. Lelouch's love/concern for people is true (helping people just for the sake of it). This doesn't mean he can't be a real asshole.

It ultimately becomes a choice of what the character sees as good and bad, a choice fans shouldn't naturally adopt. The creators even advise us to view things from other perspectives. This is the point of the disillusioned soldier in 14, of Euphie's saying that Clovis used such soft colors, of Suzaku himself at times. And the interesting thing about Geass is that characters recognize this. Suzaku himself says in 21 that neither Shirley nor Euphie revealed Lelouch's identity, even though they could have and arguably should have. They each had their own perception of Lelouch, even knowing of Zero.

Lelouch and Suzaku come to a sort of consensus in the World of C, realizing that they have been pushing their ideals regardless of what the person they're fighting for might think. Suzaku questions Lelouch's validation in Nunnally, just as Lelouch questions Suzaku's validation in Euphemia. "So?" It is not the same irreverence Lelouch previously showed toward Suzaku when he admitted to being Zero in Stage 25. No, it is a question, a challenge. So what does that mean to you? So what do you intend to do? Lelouch doesn't come to his decision to stop his parents on his own. Suzaku encourages it, pushes him on. (I will add this is not the first time Suzaku has pushed Lelouch. As a child he dismissed Lelouch's sad laments about losing his title and promises to make him emperor if they work together. In return, Lelouch reminds Suzaku that being children should not stop them from making a difference. Both assertions seem to have tragic results.) "If you want results, you have to do something." Not that much different from his challenge to Lelouch in Turn 17. Someone else can take on "And that method leads to denying something" because yeah that hurt my brain. As always, the boys are making choices.

Fandom has for the moment backed away from its flaming hatred of Suzaku, motivated by Lelouch's supporting him. But nobody knows what's going on at the end of 21. It could either be an elaborate plan or the boys might simply be insane. Should we automatically be ready to forgive everything they do because they are the protagonists? Should we even make a judgment at all? They are characters, and all that really matters is how they are seen by themselves and other characters. People are people, driven for whatever reason. And that is what Geass represents, when it's not going on wild meme-worthy tangents. Love or hate the characters for who they are and what's important to them, not for which side they play for. Again, 21 brings this point HOME. Positions are changeable; alliances unsteady and perceptions open to interpretation.

And we are left with two individuals making a choice.


Miscellaneous points of note:
- What is Jeremiah up to all this time?
- C.C. is hella inconsistent here.
- V.V. was a jealous/obsessive bitch. A little like his nephew.
- Where is Schneizel going with his comments at the end?
- Why in Gino so bothered by Lelouch's new position?
- What will Kallen be doing with Lelouch next episode?
- Where does Bismarck stand on all this?
- How much of Anya's life was her own and how much was influenced by Marianne?
- AHAHAHAH Black Knights AHAHAHAH.

Comments

[catinthelimehat.livejournal.com]

>>how much of Anya's life was on his own
>>his

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

A parallel that Lelouch sees. Lelouch sees his parents actions as selfish and disregarding the thoughts of others, corrupting their ideals. But Lelouch also feels that he has done the same and resents himself for it. "Yes, just now I came to know myself."
Great point!

I've been rewatching some old episodes today, and I was struck by how Charles' speech at Clovis' funeral about unequality and how it drove evolution rather than stagnation was similar to some of what Lelouch said in this episode. Not that the argumentation is exactly the same (because, ewww); but that's the other side of the parallel I guess. Still wondering what to think of that.

The way the episode continues the theme of lies and communication also made me think a lot about Tokyo Babylon's handling of those themes.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

Tokyo Babylon, huh? Interesting. I think I see what you mean :)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not entirely raving on this one ^_^

[lark-aero.livejournal.com]

So many plot holes, so little time :(

#1 DIETHARD'S FACE

[chiapetzukamori.livejournal.com]

just a quick comment to say that you are a very talented essay writer. I found this analysis to be an interesting read! It made me think of the episode in a little deeper way than I previously had, so good job ^_^

[moonloop.livejournal.com]

I really enjoy reading your analysises :3 You seem to understand Geass better than most people tbqh. I like all your points too.

aaaaah plotholes!!

[fujiappletan.livejournal.com]

Black Knights got pwnd.
I was curious about why Gino was acting so strongly to Lelouch's position as well boy raburabu jokes aside since just. What? I really hope it'll be explained when/should Gino have more screentime.

[faye-naruse.livejournal.com]

Xingke is another character that was left out =O He hasn't even had enough screen time to die yet!

Great analysis. Really made me think; I just wish I could come up with a reply of some kind rather than just a nod!

[eikomakimachi.livejournal.com]

One of the best analysises concerning this episode. I think world can't be bipolared into "good" and "evil". We are much more complex than that, and I believe Code Geass is successful in showing how complex it can be. All this plot twist for me is better than the old "Let's save the day because I'm the good guy!" formula.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is one of the reasons I continue to analyze it, even though its silliness makes me want to throttle the creators at times. I just wish more of fandom would realize this point and stop trying to pidegeonhole characters into one side or the other. If Geass wanted that, Britannia would simply be evil, and we wouldn't have characters like Darlton or Anya or Cecile.

[eikomakimachi.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Suzaku and Lelouch are a good hint of that, because they kinda "changed" places, since Lelouch is Britannian and Suzaku is Japanese and are the main conflict between "two visions of what is correct". You can't really tell who is evil or not in this anime, if you try to see it by different perspectives. Suzaku can either be the evil guy, if you see it by Lelouch's point of view sometimes, or the hero, he does have a lot of the "Hero" stereotype on him.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

This essay should be required reading for this entire fandom. Personally, "right" and "wrong" are dangerous. I can only go so far as to say whether or not I understand how a character came to be how they are. (This is why Suzaku is such an interesting character and Nina such a frustrating one.)

And a little more on the "right"/"wrong" topic. Code Geass is a story. Code Geass is NOT a lesson. If you're watching Code Geass as a treatise on justice and how to live life, you're doin' it wrong. It's a story about two kids, their very personal relationship, and the very personal tragic consequences of very personal actions taken on account of very personal reasons. Trying to extrapolate something like that to what is "right" and "wrong" seems a lesson in futility to me. So why the rampant judgment, guys? Just watch and empathize (and lol at how stupid this show often is).

- What is Jeremiah up to all this time?
He fell down a plot hole.

Where's Schneizel going? I'm guessing space. Why? Why not? I figure Gino is "bothered" in the same way Rivalz and Milly are "bothered". Kallen better be making fun of his clothes. Bismarck stands with Schneizel (in space). Instead of answering your question about Anya, I'll bring up another plot hole: Marianne taking over Anya's mind does nothing to explain why she has pictures of Lelouch on her phone. AHAHAHAHA Black Knights, indeed. WTG, GUYS.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Well~, that is the general goal. XD

But yes, you put it well. That Geass is not a lesson, and characters should not be vilified for standing with the "wrong" side. It is always very personal. Turn 18 was the classic example of this. How their personal issues cost so many. But as always, the personal is where Geass succeeds when it fails at many many other things lately. I'm hoping that it will remember that as we hit the final stretch. I can deal with the endless mech battles as long as Lelouch and Suzaku still go off on their personal rants.

I think Rivalz was more shocked than bothered, but you make a good point about Milly. You do love your space adventures. XD Also yeah, why the hell would she put pictures of Lelouch on her phone? Unless they hung out with each other when they are younger, which is impossible because Lelouch would remember. The Black Knights are such fail.

[levy.livejournal.com]

Marianne taking over Anya's mind does nothing to explain why she has pictures of Lelouch on her phone.

Indeed it has. Marianne says that Anya was transfered to villa Aries some days before her murder to learn manners. So it was little Anya that took a picture of Lelouch (her usual little habit) before she was involved in Marianne's homicide. After that, Charles fucked up her memory and she lost cognition to have ever been to Villa Aries and ever met young Lelouch, and that's all.


To Nayami: great essay, I quote every single word you said about the good/evilness of Lulu, Suzaku and his familiars.. =)

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, that's true. I like that explanation, thanks! =D

[aidama.livejournal.com]

If you go from having a geass that makes everyone love you, to living centuries being hated with the only wish to die, to watching your truest friend die due to jealousy, to meeting a man that honestly cares about you and whom you have probably have developed feelings for... We are led to believe that no one has honestly "loved" her for who she is until she met Lelouch. So I don't think the right word for C.C is "inconsistant". I think she is honestly confused as hell.

[kankiin.livejournal.com]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

Very interesting read. If I may comment on the misc. points, since the main subject is something I haven't had much trouble accepting in the first place...

We all know Jeremiah's going to return sooner or later...his last known duty was "searching for Nunnally" after the nuke's detonation and we haven't heard anything since. He's probably not back with the Black Knights though, if I had to guess, and would be more likely to contact Lelouch.

I didn't find C.C. "inconsistent" as much I think she's in denial about her feelings (why she sealed her own Code, etc.) and confused about what to do now that the Ragnarok Connection is off the table, in part due to the above and her own doubts. This isn't shown terribly well, but I got the message, I think.

As for the Marianne / Anya deal...while it's only speculation, Marianne probably has in fact had her consciousness emerge several times, even if mostly conveniently off-screen, over the years. The photo and other inconsistencies could just be Marianne trying to serve her own whims (say, she'd like to have a photo of her son, and it wouldn't be too hard to obtain knowing where to look) while obviously leaving Anya awfully confused.

Bismark seems to be loyal to Schneizel, now that the Emperor is gone.

The Black Knights...are just LOL-worthy.

[klingon-jedi.livejournal.com]

I agree on CC here. I also think she's not entirely pleased, or at least doesn't know what to think of Lelouch now.

I think Bismark was in Scheizel's pocket the whole time. He just knows patience like his master.

[consequences.livejournal.com]

-applauds-

Just want to commend you for taking the time to write all that and do the analysis so thoroughly. I gained a lot of insight reading.

(And yes. What is Schneizel going to do.)

[klingon-jedi.livejournal.com]

Excellent as always. I agree that Geass isn't black and white. Like you said with Charles, it's all in how they see things, and how he felt he was doing what was best. Obviously, Lelouch didn't see it that way. Charles' whole plan does offer an interesting spin on his speeches as one pointed out. He's talking about how necessary inequality is all the while planning a world where it isn't needed. It's an interesting reversal in that we thought he was for inequality, but really just felt in necessary in this world, not that it was the best.

So yes, things are very grey, and that makes things interesting.


Sorry for not including my usual essay. ^_^

[klingon-jedi.livejournal.com]

So much for that last line. Afterthoughts...

Might I add that it is interesting how the characters tend to reflect on things and try to stick to those beliefs. Like the whole thing of Shirley and Euphemia not turnng Lelouch in. Each having a feeling that, despite what he'd done, there must have been something more, that he was still the Lelouch they knew and loved. Same with Suzaku for trying hard not to believe that Lelouch was Zero, when it was painfully obvious. There's a lot of "The road to hell" stuff with the likes of Lelouch. Like how he geassed Shirley. He did it to protect her, to make her feel better and return her smile.However, he did so by removing memories and feelings she held dear, no matter how painful. So it can be viewed either way. As a noble act, or as a cruel one.

I also find it interesting in that they've sort of created a parallel between Charles and Lelouch. Both wanting a better world for those they love, both going to extremes to protect them. The difference being that Charles, whether due to the nature of Ragnarok making his actions somewhat inconsequential, or if rather over time, grew to not concern himself with those loved ones. Like Lelouch said, he abandoned them, then started a war that could've killed them, all to just move his plans forward. he even used Lelouch as a pawn in it. Lelouch, while he has done terrible things, and caused misery to his friends, has always been repentant about it. He's always also tried to keep them out of his plans, and would never use them like Charles used him. Yet still, he is very much his father's son.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say that you have good thoughts.

It's funny that Charles is basically what Lelouch aspired to be when he went down the "warlock's path"--throwing aside emotional attachment to focus on manifesting his goals. Of course, the difference is that Lelouch failed. He simply cares too much about individuals, and he's never been able to let them go, no matter how hard he's tried. It's his love for those close to him and a love for individual persons that saved him in the end and gave him the victory over the Emperocket. And, of course, though what Lelouch and Charles wanted were fundamentally the same, Lelouch ended up rejecting Charles' plan. That choice to stay in the real world and fight it out really set him apart from his father. And it means that Lelouch stays relatively whole, while Charles is orange goo. Lol, End of Eva.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Yes, and I think that the destiny of his parents work as a warning for Lelouch. It's one of the reasons why he gets to "know himself". He realizes how much he is like them, he realizes how much he is heading their way, and he decides to deny what they have to offer.

Lelouch cares too much about HIS individuals, but he also hurts them by projection and large schemes just like his parents did. When I watched 21, I was like: "Awww, Lelouch. You did the same. You were Nunnally's second parent. And yet you had to get mildly insane and try to build your better world." Nunnally wanted a better world too, but the thing she wanted most was her onii-sama by her side (as we get to known by Euphie's speech). She was a frail girl who got feverish/crazy when he was not around, and yet all his actions brought him further and further away from her, to the point that they spent the last year of her life completely separated. Like Nayami, I believe that Lelouch recognizes his father's actions for what they are exactly because he sees himself on them.

[gem2niki.livejournal.com]

Nice analysis :3 I think it sorta explains why I don't particularly side with either Suzaku or Leleouch. Rather I'm just observing their actions... the fact they are really gray makes it hard for me to like any of them since their beliefs/positions just changes constantly.

[klingon-jedi.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that their positions change contently, but rather that they grow and develop, and we as viewers get to see things through other characters vand our own perspective. It demands viewer interaction, something rare in most film media. Geass is really good at that.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with what you said about viewer interaction. :) Geass needs their viewers to work on it in order to be really awesome.

[levy.livejournal.com]

...on a side note... am I the only individual that thinks the BK has done the best thing they could do in dropping Zero down..? ° °
Zero could be a great tactician, but he will became useless once the war is over, since he's crap at actual management of a country and you can't put a masked man in charge of a government. As for the military aspect of it, even without FREJA the strenght of Britannian troops were far way greater, and they were going to loose in the long run. Coming to a quick solution of the conflict as the other side (Schneizel, who doesn't give a fuck about the miserable Japan) offers to negotiate seems to me quite reasonable, even using Zero as a scapegoat.
It's quite assured that those involved in the mutinity were (beside Diethard, maybe) pretty much biased by their personal reasons and emotions: Ohgi knows that he must stop the war if he doesn't want to loose Villetta again, one way or another, and Todou, who seems quite affected by Asahina's death, realized too late how much Zero has cheated in the match that left him with only some rags of his honour and Chiba by his side. (Maybe this too much focus speaks loud for how biased I could be about the matter according to personal preference ^^;; ...but, isn't it the suggestion given in the post? to try to see all the different perspectives..?)

And I'm not even scandalized about the apparent lack of affection the majority of them has shown to Zero. He's been quite an asshole to all of them and, beside Karen, none knows him really and therefore is not supposed to call him a friend - no matter how loud Tamaki can cry, he's never really known him.... In a war, allies are disposable if they start to act as bad allies, and Zero did.

So, to cut it short (??) after turn 19 I was pretty much persuaded that selling Zero to have Japan back was quite a nice affair. But it can be all wrong since a month has gone by and nothing seems to have changed in Area 11 and I see no parliament of the new free Japan with Kaguya sitting as the chairwoman ° °
Well, this could be easily explain with a month of collective hardcore sex crusade on the Ikaruga, that is quite well deserved after so many battles, but, c'mon guys... wait some little more...!!


I have difficulties in understanding Cornelia's stance at this point now...

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

The Black Knights' actions made sense. Finding out that your great leader is a hack and a disgruntled prince of your enemy nation? NOT finding out that he has other, deeper motivations for fighting Britannia? NOT finding out he actually does care? Yeah, what they did was totally understandable. And that's one reason why Code Geass is awesome. People (for the most part) individually act rationally and for good intentions. And when you mix everyone's rational decision and good intentions together (along with a healthy dose of deus ex machina), you sometimes end up with unsurpassed amounts of fail and tragedy.

But it is fun to laugh at the BK because we, as privileged viewers, are far more omniscient than them and know what they're doing is going to cost them. Of course, the characters are not lucky enough to have access to the entire plot, inner thoughts, and magazine spoilers. =P

[levy.livejournal.com]

Nah, I know, I know... but I saw a lot of "you assholes kicked Zero out of the ship, you'll gonna regret that!" - that probably turns out to be the truth, but just because it's Geass <- short form for epic twist of plot and unreasonable amount of power held by only one person.
You are very right in saying that the combination of good intentions oftnely generates a mess and that's the only (IMHO) nice things about this show: general fail, but that's the way the world turns on..

[eggy-egg.livejournal.com]

o_o Thank you very much for reminding me of the depth that this show actually has. And it was a very interesting read - I whole-heartedly agreed with how there's no "good" or "evil" in this show. It all comes down to the choices of the characters, and perspective of the viewer.

Oh, how I love Code Geass. :3

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

Ahh, very much agree with your observations of Charles and Marianne, especially your point about the need for conflict if you want free will, very thought-provoking indeed. Also really liked what you had to say about Lelouch's character, you described it well.

Last paragraph really explained turn21 perfectly, alliances have always been changing since the beginning, it's a pretty big reoccurring theme, and judging the characters by this seems to be missing the point. It's pretty much impossible to make a firm decision on whether you like or dislike someone using that method. As for the Emperor/Knight establishment I would like to think its something of mutual benefits and they're not out to betray each other. Oh god I want my month timeskip flashbacks!

Looking forward to your observations on the next few episodes, these posts are like essential reading. 8D

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Sorry for not getting to this sooner but LOLwork. XD

You know what I think about Geass, grey characters and difficult choices. I agree 100% with you.

I agree with those who said C.C. was not being inconsistent. I think it's all about disappointment and playing two sides at the same time until she has to make a choice (we see a similar process with Suzaku). C.C. suffers because she gets attached to people. She was attached to that nun, to Mao, to Charles and Marianne. She dumps and is dumped. She really wished to be loved. It hurts to come to terms with the fact that Marianne didn't love her that much. I think that she projects a bit on Lelouch as well, because Lelouch didn't get the kind of love he wanted either. That's why she discreetly defends him whenever she is talking to Marianne,presenting him as a human being, asking if she is there for him, pointing their similarities. I think that, in a way, C.C. has been trying to show Marianne what a lovable son she had - not because Marianne didn't love Lelouch, but because she knew that Lelouch wanted and needed something else, and because that would make her choice so much easier.

She wishes to die and at the same time she doesn't. Lelouch understands that every well when he understands her wish better than his parents did.

[chiharu.livejournal.com]

We didn't see Anya in the clip at the end of Turn 21 flashing to the knights of the rounds, so I was a little confused as to where she is.

[ctrl-a.livejournal.com]

Great analysis! Not much else to say... still digesting it all. Also, I just don't want to think much about it while everything is unresolved and unknown.

BTW: It is also why Lelouch, nor any of the other characters in Geass, can be judged with a moral compass.

I think you mean it's why Lelouch can not be judged? Otherwise the "nor" is misplaced?