Why does fandom seem to hate Suzaku?

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

I have been nosing through the fandom for some time and I couldn't help but notice the rampant Suzaku hatred. So, I decided to find out why this seemed to be the case.

'Hypocrite' seemed to be the biggest complaint, but (and yes, I am a Lulu fangirl as well before you kill me) Lelouch is one, too. So I was wondering just what made Suzaku seem to be such a target of ire.



[Poll #929606]



I'm just interested to see what dynamics make people like or dislike certain characters in this series.

Comments

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

Seeing all the Suzaku hate and Lelouch love kind of fascinates me (like a trainwreck would fascinate me).

Lelouch and Suzaku are, in their own ways, equally wrong and equally right. I mean, in interviews, the creators have stated that Lelouch represents "noble ends" and Suzaku represents "noble methods." In some of the scenes where their points of view are pitted against each other, it becomes even more clear that these are two people standing on opposite sides of the truth, neither of them quite able to reach it on their own. (Personally, I think Euphemia will help bring Suzaku closer to the truth and Kallen will help bring Lelouch closer to the truth, since they seem to have more balanced perspectives, but that's just speculation at this point.)

Lelouch, for all that his methods have been fairly successful so far, rushes forward with his dirty tricks without fully comprehending the cost of them. When he does have to confront the cost in human life of his plans, he freaks out and nearly collapses--then he goes back to ignoring it and repeatedly sacrificing his allies. He seems incapable of viewing people as equals, only as things to use (Kallen, the Black Knights) or objects to protect (Nunnally, Shirley). He strings people along with the promise that he's doing it for justice, but really he's just trying--in a rather destructive way--to cope with his own trauma. For her own reasons, C.C. gave him the power to bring about change, but can he really create a better world with those messed-up motives and those dubious methods?

Suzaku, meanwhile, wants to end the fighting and bring about a peaceful world, but he's too trapped by his own guilt and self-hatred to step outside the lines and do so in an effective way. So he serves the very people who nearly destroyed his own people, desperately hoping he can fix his mistakes without causing more bloodshed. For his own reasons, Lloyd gave him the power to make a name for himself in the ranks and therefore eventually the power to have a positive influence on Britannian rule, but can his clean methods really do anything against such corruption and coming from such screwed-up motives?

While I like Lelouch much more than Suzaku, personally (although I like Suzaku a lot more after Stage 16), it's the way they're pitted against each other as foils so beautifully that really enthralls me. I've seen someone argue that we're supposed to hate Suzaku because "he's a great villain," but uh, villains are generally not nice, screwed-up guys desperate to save innocent lives. He's an antagonist, and so he's as screwed up as Lelouch, as wrong as Lelouch, but not more. That's what makes their fight so fascinating.

To get back to my original topic, the Suzaku hate and Lelouch love is particularly fascinating because it shows just how much who fandom worships and who fandom bashes depends on what perspective the show is presented through. What if the show was focused on Suzaku struggling with his inner demons and trying to reconcile his ideals with the fact that he was working for a corrupt empire? Throw in the fact that his best friend (who everyone slashes him with) was hurting people through acts of terrorism he believed to be the right thing to do...man. Everyone would rave about what a hero Suzaku was (possibly even compare him to Naruto and Ichigo and Athrun) and what an inexcusable jackass his best friend was for getting in his way with that terrorist bullshit.

I can just see it:

"Suzaku can freaking handle himself in combat; he knows what he's getting himself into. But stupid Lelouch runs into combat situations and then whines when he's not good enough to handle it. He's such an immature little brat. And he's a total fraud--he says he's doing this for justice, but it's all about protecting his stupid little sister and avenging his mother! But he's just so cool and all the girls are after him. Ugh, what a Marty Stu."

Fans get so invested with "siding" with one character or another, I swear.

[cornflowercloud.livejournal.com]

*claps* Great observation (or should I say mini-essay? ^_^) here. I especially love the little detail about Euphemia and Kallen's balanced perspectives, as well as 'noble methods' VS 'noble ends' - excellent choice of terms here. ^_^ Well, eh... I don't have much to add. ^^;

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

That was a very lovely and well thought-out response.

I agree with what you are saying, though. If the tables were turned, it'd be exactly like that.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking on it for a while. Geass has some of the most character bashing I've seen in any fandom, at least for a fandom this young. :/ It makes me kind of sad because I wonder how people enjoy the show if they're so focused on hating a character--often for silly reasons like "he has hax powers!!" (...in a show about rollerblading mecha and magical girls who come back from getting shot in the head) or "he's too much of a goody-two-shoes!" or blatantly untrue reasons like "he's a Kira clone and a Mary Sue!"

I dunno. It's just kind of hard for me to grasp, because I very rarely hate characters anymore unless they're genuinely badly written. It's fiction; I might not like such-and-such a character if I met them in real life, but that's what makes it great to be able to watch them on a screen.

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

I do find it sad this fandom is very bash-happy.

Its very true though - I could understand it more if it was a modern-day real world setting, but as it has magical girls, geass powers and mechas; you can't really apply contemporary terms to it.

I understand I haven't watched a huge amount of Gundam Seed, but the amount it gets compared kind of bothers me. CG is its own show and its being strangled by GS too much, imho.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

There seemed to be quite a few little homages and nods to SEED in the beginning, but as the show progressed, it really moved into its own territory. People rant about how the upcoming island arc is a SEED ripoff, for instance, but it seems pretty clear that they're not doing romance--so they're making a nod to SEED with involving getting-stranded-on-an-island-together at all, but they're going in their own direction with it.

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean - its almost impossible to be utterly original nowadays, so having a nod to the predecessors is nice. I just think people are getting a little too hung up on comparison.

I mean I've seen

"Euphemia has pink hair, so shes obviously a Lacus ripoff" comments around and things like that which is taking it a touch too far I think.

[oh-geass-no.livejournal.com]

That was well written, and is very accurate. *A*

But, your final thought brings up a burning question.

If it was focused on Suzaku instead of Lelouch, would it be called "Code Lancelot" instead of Geass? ... Well, that's what I first thought of when I saw that.

And honestly, if Suzaku was the lead, I'd prolly not have gotten into the show as hastily as I did. While I have nothing that bad against him, seeing everything from Lelouch's side makes things a lot more interesting in the long run. At least I think so. *A*

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

No, it would be called "Why Do You Keep Hurting Me, Arthur Baby ;A;"

I agree with you, though. I didn't get into it because there's a limit on comment length and all, but I think pitting the more outwardly "antiheroic" Lelouch as the hero is one of the things that makes Geass such an engaging series.

[zalem.livejournal.com]

No, even if Suzaku was the main character I'd still like Lulu better. See pet peeve #1 of that anon post. That's one point about Suzaku that just really bothers me too much to ignore. I mean if he gets enlightened and changes his silly thinking then I'll forgive him for it, but if this anime ends with Suzaku and Euphie happily holding hands and Area 11 being a good little obedient colony then I will be very unhappy.

What can I say, I dislike what Brittania stands for and really think it needs the smack down. I also want Area 11 to be free and be Japan again. But Suzaku doesn't want that. He is ok with Area 11 being a good little colony. Sacrifice culture, heritage and history all for so-called peace and get treated like dirt. It just doesn't jive well with me. But again, I sort of fully expect him to come around so that's why I don't hate him. He's just a confused, messed up kid. There is no point in making final judgments about his character when we don't know where he'll end up. Now Lulu...I agree with his goal, but I can't say I agree with all his methods. Of course, we have to wait and see what happens with his character too. Though to be honest I've always liked darker characters so even if he was a total bad-ass I'd still like him probably. :)

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

The Code Geass world's culture is different. Brittania is more powerful than America is in the current world climate. Suzaku values the lives of people themselves over culture, heritage and history.

Brittania is, indeed, wrong, but Suzuka's view is valid.

Is he right? No. But neither is Lelouch right to think people tools, or Kallen right to have been mean to her mother. These flaws are there to make the characters feel real and brining a more engaging conflict to the series.

[zalem.livejournal.com]

Eh? I never even mentioned anything about the current world climate. ^^;;; Not sure why you're bringing that up. The point is he is supporting a dictatorship that murders his people ruthlessly. So not only is he betraying his country, but the very people he seeks to protect. Of course his heart is in the right place, it's just he's not going about it the right way. And I never said the characters were without flaws. That's the very reason I like Lelouch. But Suzaku's flaws...just annoy me more. But again, I don't hate him...I just wish he would wake up. Same thing for Lulu...he needs a real wake up call. I like him, but if he keeps going down the path he's going he'll only end up destroying himself.

[zalem.livejournal.com]

Oh and just to clarify, I'm not the anonymous person...just happen to agree with their #1. Unlike that person I don't hate Suzaku. I just want to give him a good slap once in a while. lol. I also want to give him a hug sometimes too. Poor boy...

[empanadas]

*claps* That's a well-written comment! :D And I agree with all of your points, well, except for the last one. From my times lurking at different message boards and LJ comms, I've seen fangirls and fanboys favor the badass antiheroes/villains over the "goody-goody" types. There would still be a lot more Lelouch love. Even if Suzaku was the protagonist, he would still get the stupid accusations of being a Kira clone at him. While it's true that Suzaku would gain more favor if he was in the main role instead of Lelouch, there would still be bashing against him, sorry to say. D:

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

I actually agree--I just didn't want to risk running over the comment length limit. XD; I've seen the "villains/antiheroes are cool and goody-two-shoes are icky! Evil is cool, good is dumb!" mentality in Naruto fandom quite a bit, for instance. I think it's a large part of why Geass fandom is so nearly monolithic in its love of Lelouch and, to a lesser extent, hatred of Suzaku. Normally the fandom gets split into "siding with the viewpoint character" and "siding with the cool dark guys" camps that bicker and bash each other--Naruto vs. Sasuke/Itachi/the Akatsuki, Kira vs. Shinn (although this one is more muddled because of Destiny's confusion over who was the main character), Harry vs. Draco/Snape/Death Eaters, etc. But with Geass, the power of both forces has been combined. D:

[melrose10.livejournal.com]

You win at internets. :D