Oh, Those Boys...

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Spoilers up to Turn 16 and the Turn 17 Preview.

Forgive the TL;DR, but I have much to say on this subject, since it's fascinating~ Oh, and a few pictures, because I have to do something with all these screencaps hanging around my journal.



Since I am ALL HYPED UP for Turn 17, being what I wanted to see since R2 started, (Yay for honesty~!) I thought it would be nice for us to have a discussion on our favorite pair of angsty boys.

First: Turn 17 YAY. Looks like they're finally going to have that talk that's been desperately needed since about Stage 23. Or, ever. Given Suzaku's taken to flashing the knight pin everywhere, it looks like the subject of Euphie will come up. FINALLY. Will Lelouch finally come clean and tell Suzaku what happened (PLEASE PLEASE SUNRISE)or is he gonna go all emo and silencey and just admit that it was his fault without getting into the details of it. I know that's how Lelouch is an all "Yes, I did this, I have no excuse..." but still, man. Tell Suzaku it was an accident. You don't want your best friend thinking you murdered his girlfriend on purpose forever, do you?

Though I haven't read the spoilers, and don't intend to, I've heard some comments that make me slightly afraid that this episode won't end on a good note. Or an even sorta-okay note during the exchange between the two. Well, considering the spoiler about Suzaku being stabbed with the refrain gun wasn't true, I have hope that maybe whatever those are won't be true either.

A part of me hopes that somewhere during the rest of R2 Turn 25 Suzaku and Lelouch might make up and team up to take Britannia down. I can only see this happening if SOMETHING BIG happens to force them to work together meaning Nunnally but it would be nice to see. I wanna see the boys work together more often, though I know if it does happen again, it will only be once and short lived.

Which is why whatever happens in Turn 17 will be so vital. If the boys ever want to be friends again, then they need to:

1. Put Euphie behind them,
2. Stop blaming everything that goes wrong on each other (I'm mostly looking at you, Suzaku >.>)
3. Realize that while they are on different sides, they are still the same people (Still looking at you, Suzaku) And that each of their intentions are aimed for good, even if they don't add up,
4. Acknowlege that they each make mistakes (Yeah, this is definitely aimed towards you, Suzaku. Just admit you made a mistake for once, jeez. And not something like "Oh, I should have realized Lelouch was Zero sooner!" either. >.>) and these mistakes can not be blamed upon the other person,
5. Swallow their pride a little bit,
6. FORGIVE EACH OTHER. D:< (Though the whole "Suzaku...you don't want to forgive him." thing makes it kinda hard at this point),
7. Oh yeah, and have something big push them together, of course.

Though, the main thing screwing their friendship over is their inability to disassociate their friends from who they were as enemies. Suzaku saw Zero as his enemy not just because he was a "terrorist", but also because Zero personified everything Suzaku hated about himself--and boy, does he hate himself. That was how I interpreted the "Your existance is a mistake!" line--he wasn't talking to Lelouch, but the fact that Lelouch was Zero--someone he hated and a fact that, at that moment in time, he felt should not have happened. In his quickness to accuse Lelouch of murdering Shirley (something he should know Lelouch would NEVER do) proves that he still thinks that the persona of Zero has "warped" Lelouch into the soulless, murderous thing that he thought Zero was.

And with the annoyingly show-offy Lancelot coming to save the day and screw over Lulu's well laid plans all the time in S1, I don't think Lelouch can get over seeing Suzaku as a rival and an enemy. When Kallen was taken by Britannia in Turn 11, Lelouch instantly blamed Suzaku for "taking everything that was his". Trusting Suzaku with Nunnally is a different matter entirely, since Nunnally came before all of this, but beyond that, Lelouch assumes that Suzaku is out to get him. (Which he kinda is, but the point is, they think the worst of each other now).

But another point to be noted is now that they know each other's identities, they've stopped messing with each other. Or, to be more specific, letting others mess with them. Suzaku could have easily reported the fact that the intelligence agency had all been geassed and Lelouch was missing, but he didn't. Lelouch could have aimed an attack on Suzaku to capture him like he did in S1, but he didn't.

Because despite the fact that they hate each others guts, it's a personal matter. They were best friends once, and they don't forget it. Only Suzaku will "kill Zero". And I assume only Lelouch will deal with Suzaku assuming our Knight of Seven is bad at not falling into traps again later on in this series.

And deep down, deep DEEP down, they still love each other. Somewhere. Lelouch was the first one to show it when he called Suzaku, admitting he was Zero, and BEGGED him to save Nunnally. Even though Suzaku is his enemy, even though he's doing a dangerous thing admitting he's Zero to the Knight of Seven--he still trusts Suzaku enough to beg him for his help.

Though Suzaku hasn't shown it fully yet (Euphie probably still floating strong in his mind) he wants to talk. He wants to know answers. He knows that his old friend Lelouch would never kill Euphie like that, and that something fishy happened. Part of him wants to blame Lelouch outright, but the rest knows that not all was as it seemed, and that perhaps there may be a story there. Also, did you see his face when Lelouch begged him to save Nunnally? Perhaps he's finally starting to get an inkling that while Lelouch may be Zero, he still is Lelouch deep down.

Oh well. Only time (And Turn 17) will tell if our boys will kiss and make up and be friends again, or not. I hope for a GOOD END for both of them, but this is Geass. You never know. If one (or both) does die, then I can't see either of them going down without admitting that they are still friends for the sake of weepy-eyed fangirls.


Well, that's my overanalyzed thoughts on the subject of Suzaku and Lelouch, thought up while I had nothing to do at work on Geass Sundays. I probably forgot something, because their relationship is so complex with many intricite details, but that's all that seemed relevant now.

Also if this you love Suzaku and Lelouch and their twisted relationship as much as I do, I suggest you check out this manifesto. Where I might have taken an idea or two because it is such an awesome manifesto that totally redefined the way I thought about Suzaku and Lelouch back when I first read it.




So uh, yeah, any thoughts upon this subject? Anyone else TOTALLY HYPED for Turn 17?

Comments

[lulu-holic.livejournal.com]

well when i read this post, i realized that everything point out to suzaku, i mean the series will end happily and everything turn good depending on how suzaku will act toward lulu in ep17, right? (cuz he is the blockheaded one in the series)
honestly! look at orenge who was so dying to kill zero in S1 (and who has been mocked by zero and lost everything )switched immediately to his side without doubt and vowed his loyalty to him!! someone got to learn from orange!!

[gacktsuki.livejournal.com]

I love our boys,too. And I agree with you that they will definitely make up in the end (maybe after they kill each other and are gonna die !!! ) But i don't want Lelouch to tell Suzaku about the accident with Euphie in turn 17. I want Suzaku to find out himself and then run to kiss Lelouch, apologizing for having been an ass >_<.

[clones.livejournal.com]

Suzaku saw Zero as his enemy not just because he was a "terrorist", but also because Zero personified everything Suzaku hated about himself--and boy, does he hate himself.

For some reason, I lol'd when I read this. I see it this way as well, though. Suzaku is seriously my favorite character, regardless of all the shitty things he does in the series; he's the most interesting character to me because of his extremely conflicted emotions and thoughts. Gotta love him!

That was how I interpreted the "Your existence is a mistake!" line--he wasn't talking to Lelouch, but the fact that Lelouch was Zero--someone he hated and a fact that, at that moment in time, he felt should not have happened.

And oh god, this part in the series killed me. I think Suzaku was hitting directly under the belt with this insult, even if he didn't realize it. Re-watching episode 7 in R1 shows just how affected Lelouch is by what other people think of him. With his father telling him that he was dead from the moment he was born and all that jazz. No wonder he flipped out at Suzaku for saying that. Our poor, poor Lulu. He never gets a break.

I really hope that they make up. Their relationship is my favorite, and not necessarily in a yaoi way. I love the friendship between them, and I really hope that it makes a revival in the series. ;-;

[thrumugnyr.livejournal.com]

I would love if they could make up somewhat...but knowing this series and the characters, actually I don't think much will happen regarding this situation...

[eternalruby.livejournal.com]

SUZALULU FOREVER!!!

I really really really wish they could be friends in the end... ;_;

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

A quick comment before I leave.

I agree with most everything. A few caveats, though. Although Suzaku was quick to accuse Lelouch of being complicit in Shirley's death, he knows that killing people like that is not in Lelouch's character. It goes back to his general "WTF" at the Euphie incident. The same Lelouch that ordered him to "Live!" cannot possibly (in his mind) also intentionally kill Euphie and Shirley like that.

Also, it wasn't the Lancelot screwing Lelouch over all the time in S1 that made Lelouch see Suzaku as a rival/enemy. Up until the end, the both of them tried to separate the battlefield from the not-battlefield and, despite knowing each other's alternate identities, tried desperately to cling onto their friendship. Of course, Euphie dying changed that for Suzaku, and Suzaku turning him over to the Emperor changed that for Lelouch. Only something personal like that (instead of battle or revolution) could shatter their friendship.

[eikomakimachi.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think what really might have shattered their friendship is the whole set of event that happened followed by Euphie's death. For Lelouch, at least, I think what hit the spot was the fact that Suzaku turned him over to the Emperor, while for Suzaku was the fact that Zero/Lelouch killed Euphie. Before that, even if they were enemies in battle they tried at best to separate those issues from their personal life, even when the two suspected of the true identity of each other.

[starryburst.livejournal.com]

Being a hardcore Lelouch/Rolo shipper, I AM NOT HYPED.

But still, I don't totally have a fork up my ass. Their friendship is a very interesting thing, it has been from the beginning. I am lightly, sorta eager for tomorrow to see how it all pans out. :)

[codename-windy.livejournal.com]

YES BOYS, FUCKING FINALLY! Now kiss and make out up, mm'k?

I do so wish that Suzaku would just get to forgiving Lelouch (and himself), even if I know it's highly unlikely to happen. *sigh~* Couldn't he at least realize that he now has a huge deadly bomb on his Knightmare frame and that odds are he will somehow get screwed over by the "LIVE!" geass and use the damn thing? Save yourself from that tragedy and just elope with Lelouch while you still have a chance, Suzaku!

As a slightly more serious part of this comment, I want to say I quite like your taker on Suzaku's "Your existance is a mistake!" line. It also reminded me how I felt that in the last picture drama of season 1 Suzaku was partly feeling responsible for Lelouch becoming Zero and thus also blaming himself somewhat. He seemed to feel that if he had spoken to Lelouch, back when they were children, maybe warned him about how wrong killing one's father feels or at least confeshed his own actions, Lelouch might not had taken the path of Zero.

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

As it's been mentioned in the comments, considering the circumstances in which Suzaku thinks Lelouch killed Euphie, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to think that he killed Shirley too. I think he still can't quite reconcile the Zero/Lelouch characters as one person.

Anyway, YES I am excited for Turn 17, just to see what goes down and how they'll act around one another truthfully after all this time. It's extremely unlikely to end well, as you suggested it will be the last episode when we get some kind of conclusion about their friendship, but I'm hoping this episode will give us more of an insight. Even if one or both dies, I just want their friendship to survive the series, so bad!

[lulu-holic.livejournal.com]

oh that is such a great idea!!, i vote for that1

[inclino.livejournal.com]

(Wall of text, beware!)
I agree. That's also why he didn't want to believe at first that Lelouch was Zero. I think he is just a really confused guy.
From Suzaku's point of view, Zero is an asshole (no pun intended :'D) that used and killed lots of innocent people - including Euphemia, Shirley and her father - just to carry on with his plan, and doesn't regret it because "the ends justify the means". (unlike Suzaku, who screwed up his life because of regret) Someone mentioned the "live" geass, but I think Suzaku felt even more used there. Both would die if not for the geass, and Zero was the one who wanted to live, not Suzaku.
At the same time, although Lelouch has some weird morals, Suzaku knows he is far from being a "bad guy" and has enough reasons to be like this. The same Lelouch cared for those around him, liked Euphemia and Shirley and wouldn't kill them. Actually, he jumped off the building to save Shirley. Both would die if Suzaku wasn't there, but Lelouch knew he was and trusted him. (uh, like every other time right?)
At this point, Suzaku must think that "Lelouch" is just a facade for Zero, his true self (and a psycho). This can be seen when he says "What does the enemy of Britannia want from me?", for instance. Poor confused guy would go "WTF?" if he ever watched R2 7 lol
Lelouch understands Suzaku way better than the other way around. He understood from the moment he saw Suzaku breaking down at Mao's words. Yes, he does feel betrayed, but it's not hate. He can see where he is at fault too, and that's probably why he still thinks of Suzaku as someone he likes a lot, even after being exchanged for power. When C.C. goes "blah blah, friends, allies" he is the first person that comes to mind.

Uh or maybe I'm just spouting nonsense because I'm too excited. I've been waiting for this since the beginning of R2, I've rewatched 17.5 three times this week and I can never get enough of Suzaku and Lelouch. >_>

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

Gahhh. I want to see Suzaku coming to terms with his guilt and living a life for himself, I think that's what Lelouch really wanted to say when he Geassed him. Sure, he wanted to live too, but he could have said 'save me', but he didn't want Suzaku to give up his life like that.

Aww, Lelouch has always been one step ahead in this respect. He's always known the full story about Suzaku and Suzaku is always lagging behind or misinterpreting things, and who can blame him. ;_; Hmm, Lelouch still loves him a lot even if he doesn't 'like' him right now.

17.5?
Uhuhh, join the club 8D

[jeans-dream.livejournal.com]

This whole series - not that one pair - is very fascinating to me ever since a friend of mine showed me a clip of it. Yeah, the central pairing in this outside of Lelouch vs his whole damn family - are these two friends turned enemies, and yet there's this whole complex web around them which just pulls you in and won't let you go.

My opinion of those two is as such: They're both blind, dumb and deaf.

No. I'm kidding. There's been a lot of misunderstanding between these two and their environments don't help either. I wish things would get straightened out between them. It aches my heart so badly so see them divided by a wall as huge as the one that was in Berlin.

I was surprised to find out the real ending of S1 at the beginning of S2, but I figured there must've been something that happened, although I thought C.C. might've been behind it. I had no idea there were so many Geass users though - that's nuts. It kinda almost reminded me a little of Smallville with all the random villains in it.

I have yet to get to 16 even, yet 17, but I'll make it. I'm on 15 right now, but still...this is something I've been curious about myself...along with about a million and a half other things, but hey...this is a good start.

So, I say I wish these two the best...

[inclino.livejournal.com]

I think so, too. There wasn't much time left, so I believe he just said what came to his mind, and it was "live" instead of "let me alive".
That's so true. It's the whole physical/mental thing they have. Suzaku is slowww when it comes to thinking and perceiving, too. I agree about Lelouch still loving Suzaku. I'm just unsure about the other way around... or rather, Suzaku is unsure. Dx
Yes, 17.5, that recap episode. Where, after finding out Suzaku pilots the Lancelot, Lelouch is all "SHIT SUZAKU, WHY EUPHIE OVER MEUS?" basically his inner monologue on what he's going to do now.
Anyway, sure, along with all the Geass female cast as shown in R2 sound episode 1. :'D

[saverellawish.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of that. I love that manifesto to pieces to as well. I think all your points and ideas are spot on, and it only makes me more excited for Turn 17. But yeah I agree totally, can't exactly show it though, cause like I really need to go lie down. Cause like getting up to go buy Breaking Dawn at 5 in the morning and operating while trying to read it with less than 4 hours of sleep is not good for you.

So yeah... Maybe I'll try to come up with something coherent later.

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

OH WOW I don't think I ever saw that episode, I marathonded S1 and probably skipped the recap. You say it's interesting? I'll have to seek it out.
Ohohoho~ I can't wait for more gay in the next sound drama.
Naked. Man. Festival.

[animegoil.livejournal.com]

Ah, this was good. I'm having a tough time reconciling myself with the huge change in the way they see each other, especially from Suzaku, and an terribly frustrated with his blaming Euphie's death like that on Lelouch, as you said. I really wish the whole thing could be explained the way it truly happened. If they could look into each other's hearts (oh God, how sappy that sounds) and Suzaku could see how much Lelouch cared about Euphie, and Lelouch understand the hurt that went into her death and all that for Suzaku, maybe things could get better.

And, maybe I'm having a blond moment, but what episode does Lelouch beg Suzaku to save Nunally?

[chickee1.livejournal.com]

I just watched eps 22-23 of season one last night, Suzaku really changes in those eps, and so does Lelouch... I don't think they could go back after that...

After watching those Bastard Suzaku made more sense (I'd forgotten how painful 23 was) and made me love him again. But i don't think he can go back at all.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Ah, you're probably true about that--I can't believe I forgot about the turning him over to the Emperor thing. D: I need to re-watch Turn 2.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

That phrase was cold and unfortunately, there are a billion ways one could interpret it from his point of view.

Because I don't want to believe Suzaku would tell his friend he is not supposed to exist, I thought (hope) he was always talking about Zero.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

I have hope for him...just a small, tiny hope. D:

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Turn 16.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

I kinda hope when the "LIVE!" screws him over, it won't be using the nuke. I kinda hope he'd kill someone close to him, or hell, anyone, really.

Yeah, you can totally tell in Stage 25 after it is revealed that Lulu is Zero that Suzaku is blaming himself. And it's so sad. ): Which is probably another reason he hates "Zero" so much is that he thinks he couldn't prevent it...and it's also another reason to let the boy hate himself, but that is a good thing.

[inclino.livejournal.com]

Well, yes. Even though there's nothing really new, it's a great thing to watch when you need your SuzaLulu fix, since it's like an excuse to put in a single episode all cute scenes with Suzaku and Lelouch up to that point. :'D Anyway.
I know, right? When I saw it, I went "WTF?" but then again, after the whole oil thing and bath scenes with Lulu and Rivalz, I won't doubt anything coming from Sunrise. Anymore.

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

This sounds highly relevant to my interests. Thanks for informing me of its existence.
Ilu Sunrise. Wait, Lulu and Rivalz bath scene? I'm guessing you're referring to that sound drama.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

I'm really just hoping that Turn 17 doesn't end with "SUZAKUUUU!" "LELOUUUCH!!!" to be honest. D:

I think that's the best we can hope for right now.

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

We have less than 5 hours to wait! Woo! :D

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Aha~ Well, Lelouch/Rolo is a cute pairing, I admit. It's twisted sure, but never appealed to me as much as Suzaku/Lelouch. Suzaku/Lelouch is about as twisted as you can get. :D

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Well, since it's Sunrise, I'm betting on a reconciliation at the end of Turn 25. Probably before one of them dies, unfortunately. D:

[inclino.livejournal.com]

No problem, actually, good to inform you of the existence of such a great thing. :'D
Same here, of course.
Yes, I am. "Angel's Gloss: Floral Bouquet Aroma, works wonders for your feelings and love life" lmao.

[animegoil.livejournal.com]

Ah, no wonder, I think I got stuck at halfway through 16 or something, and that's why I haven't gotten to that yet...

[sakura-no-miko.livejournal.com]

Only one thing makes me sad for Turn 17...
I remember hearing that one of the producers said that Lelouche and Suzaku won't be teaming up. Granted, I've forgotten if this was on this comm, or on 4chan, so it's possible it was a lie or a mis-translation.
Now, I'm pretty sure this was brought up in the context of ,"will Lelouche and Suzaku go against the Geass cult together" or somesuch. So...I'd like to think this could be taken differently in different contexts...

renabunny42 never signs in to her REAL lj :/

[touchatouchme.livejournal.com]

God, I want to try to get in some re watching before 17 too XD Just... Suzaku is my favorite character, and the relationship the two have is wonderful. As epic as the rest of 16 was, their phone call at the end just stole the show for me :)

Glad to hear about 17.5, I think I might have skipped watching that too! And just in general, uh god watching the dub while I watch R2 is wonderful, god the number of parallels they have across seasons. For that matter more and more I'm getting the urge to see Legend of the Galactic Heroes, someone made a comment about Lulu and Suzu's relationship being like Reinhard and Kircheis? I guess I'll have to see for myself on that one XD


This really is a turning point for the boys, and I can't wait to see where they take us with it. I can tell we're ramping up for the end, and god I might cry when that happens, really, but I also just can't wait and see you know?

Re: renabunny42 never signs in to her REAL lj :/

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Their phone calls are so deliciously epic. I think I've watched the Stage 23 phone call at least a hundred times. And heck, I can quote the Turn 16 phone call accurately IN JAPANESE. :D

I see Turn 17 as a turning point for the Lelouch/Suzaku relationship. Whatever happens here will pan out for the rest of the series. Granted Geass could be Geass and throw in a lolmassacre or something to completely screw with everything, but before that happens, it's Turn 17 that's going to decide it all.

[jeans-dream.livejournal.com]

I have to get through 15 and 16 first heh heh...

*nods* Yeahhh

[codename-windy.livejournal.com]

Personally I would prefer the nuke getting used because of the "LIVE!" geass, since the other option would be Suzaku using it by his own choise. ^^;;; They've given the whole bomb thing too much screentime for the bomb to not be used and it just seems really unlikely that someone else would pilot Lancelot at this point.

With the new episode, Suzaku definitely has plenty to choose from for continuing his charming habbit of hating himself. XD;; Being guilt tripped by both Schneizel *and* Kanon, not to mention having Lelouch think he set him up and betrayed him? You can practically smell to upcoming self-loathing by Suzaku~