Turn 18 Discussion & wtfness

[recodes.livejournal.com]

I'm still speechless. As usual, please do not click if you don't want to spoil yourselves.

EDITED: Added extra info and discussion points.

I'll just state a few points that we can discuss, because I'm still too speechless by the recent turn.

- Sayoko released Kallen, who joined the fight her upgraded Guren. Lloyd went "NOOOO!! My ---"
- Anya trapped Shinkirou, almost succeeded in pwning Lulu but she got another sync episode and fell.
- Rolo (;_;) wasn't really planning to save Nunnally... "I'll find Nunnally and kill her. Nii-san's only sibling is me."
- Luciano's dead, thanks to Kallen. Funny that Kallen used Luciano's famous words before finishing him off "What's the most important thing to you?"
- Nina initially wanted to use Lancelot. No way, woman. She kept urging Suzaku to "Fire! Fire it!", much to my annoyance.
- Charles' actual whereabout is still unknown, but he seems to be enjoying the show to the fullest
- Kinoshita died in front of Asahina, and Asahina had just told Toudou that Zero's not actually purely helping them because of the Japanese (he didn't say that, but that's what we can interpret).
- Guilford died saving Lulu ;_;, and Cornelia (who managed to escape) kind of felt his presence moments before his death. My pairing...
- Jeremiah rocks in Sigfried, but Lakshata still wondered why the heck was Jeremiah fighting on their side in the first place
- Lulu was intent on killing Suzaku off. I bet he totally forgot his Geass on him was still on.

- I've always known somehow that Suzaku would use Freya, but I didn't expect it would be under this situation. Kallen's upgraded Guren totally pwned Lancelot (which was why Lloyd and Cecil kept urging Suzaku to "Run away, Lord Kururugi!". Nina screamed at him to shoot Freya, saying that it would save his life. Suzaku refused. But before the impact that would surely kill him, the "Live!" Geass activated and Suzaku fired.

Everything was almost in slow motion. Too many things and too many people were enveloped by the pink light. And everything vanished just like that. I felt for Lulu when he screamed for Nunnally before the explosion.

If Sunrise is fucking our brains for real, chances are Nunnally, Sayoko and many others are still alive. It happened to fast for even Sayoko to retreat with Nunnally. Rolo wasn't with them, so he was saved.

When Lulu asked Rolo about Nunnally, the poor kid tried to make Lulu see some light. "But Nunnally is dead!" and Lulu (denial, maybe) harshly screamed "Shut up!". Rolo's death is practically confirmed judging by the preview. Lulu's going to take the phone and the locket and smash it to the ground.

Maybe Rolo would try to comfort him by saying that Lulu's still got him even if Nunnally's gone. And knowing Lulu, he's going to snap and tell Rolo everything about him using the boy for his cause.

The worse part is that Schneizel was smiling triumphantly when Suzaku fired Freya.

Additional:
So Suzaku was the one who fired Freya, but that was only due to the Geass. We know that Suzaku flat out refused to use it. Technically, this makes Lulu the one who's responsible for all the death count. It all comes back to him. If Nunnally REALLy died, then he should be blaming himself for her death too.

T__T

Or did Lulu totally, totally forgot about that? He should know why Suzaku fired when he was at the brink of death. If he wanted Suzaku to really die in battle, why didn't he tell Jeremiah to undo the "Live" Geass on Suzaku?

p.s/ I didn't realise the previous post by someone else since I was typing this at that time. This post runs on another wavelength though, because our emphasis on the events in the episode (plus the info) is different. Mods can delete this post if it's violating the rules, nonetheless.

Comments

[misteline.livejournal.com]

Was that really his last resource even though he knew the consequences? He could just fucking run away or call for help from Gino maybe?

I don't think that's possible. She was totally about to kill him. And, I don't think it's possible for someone to be entirely competent and aware of their actions while under Geass. It would explain Suzaku's "personality change", but that's just my guess.

I agree with you, though. This isn't all Lelouch's fault. But you can't really ignore the fact that had Lelouch not placed the order to "Live" on Suzaku, Suzaku wouldn't have fired it. So, despite the fact that he technically fired it, all the blame can't go on Suzaku either. This situation really is no different from Euphie's. She killed all those people, yes, but should all the blame and responsibility fall on her shoulders alone? No. Of course, Lelouch had no way of knowing something like this would happen because of his prior actions. :| So, eh? That can't be helped.

Also, I think the fact that only (I think!!) Euphie was capable of resisting Geass shows how special she was. It's not something everyone can do, not even Suzaku. D:

[e-eleniel.livejournal.com]

"...had Lelouch not placed the order to "Live" on Suzaku, Suzaku wouldn't have fired it."

Right. Yet, I don't think Lulu forsaw something like this when he placed that geass on him.

Then again, he could just make Orenji cancel suzu's geass, if he really wanted him to die. But Lelouch seems to have totally forgotten that geass at that moment when he ordered Kallen to kill him.

And also, Suzaku could retreat on the first order. He was just so bent on stopping the mess with Zero, he ignored blatand warnings from Guren's modifiers.

Both are responsible on equal levels, both will suffer the consequences. But as you say bashing only one character for everything is stupid.

I really wonder how Suzaku will get away from the scene next episode... Will Kallen just let him go saying "Oh, he dropped a nuke...asdlkakslk" I want to see how dropping a nuke can help him get away from a close-range battle, maybe he will just run away using the chaos...

I saw this on /a/ and found interesting and agree with some points:

"Things were looking bad for Lelouch and company UNTIL Kallen showed up. Lloyd told Suzaku to run for a very good reason, because Lloyd knew that the Lancelot was not a match for it in any respect. Suzaku takes the most blame in this situation because he chose to specifically ignore the order to retreat. He also willingly chose to accept death, cognizant of the fact that that he had the Live Geass still. This was no different than the situation where Suzaku was going to be stabbed by a Britannian solider a few episodes earler. He knew what had happened then, and there was no reason for him to think it wouldn't happen again in this context.

Lelouch does share a signifigant amount of blame though. He outright ordered Kallen to kill Suzaku, and dismissed Suzaku's earlier threat about having a bomb capable of total destruction out of hand. He was bitten in the ass by that, so he got his punishment.

All in all, Suzaku is more to blame due to the fact that he willfully ignored orders and is guilty of willful negligence on the part of his Live Geass. Lelouch takes less blame for his own negligence because he had reason to disbelieve anything Suzaku said and was also correct in his assumption that the destruction of the Lancelot would win them the battle, because Gino would be the only Britannian ace active in the area after that, and he could be easily dispatched."

[misteline.livejournal.com]

I agree, no one did see any of this coming. Not even Suzaku, so that puts them in pretty much the same arena, ne?

But Lelouch seems to have totally forgotten that geass at that moment when he ordered Kallen to kill him.

It seems like Lelouch forgot, but there's still a possibility that he did remember and ordered Kallen to kill Suzaku in hopes of overriding that Geass. Of course, that's all conjecture. But, remember, as we saw with Shirley and Euphie, Geass is not the "Be All to End All". It has its flaws.

And, yes, Suzaku could have retreated and Lelouch could have not issued the "Live" order to Suzaku. Suzaku could have disarmed Fleia when he had the chance and Lelouch could have not ordered Kallen to kill Suzaku. It's a never ending chain of events, you see. People act on their instincts, so I basically see this entire battle as one of an emotionally charged environment. Neither character was really thinking things through. But then again, Sunrise needs a plot. XD; So, we viewers will have to ignore the holes and inconsistencies.

Well, in response to this person on /a/, this battle was moving at a rather fast pace. Suzaku couldn't just run away. The new Guren's machine potential had not become apparent to him until after he'd entered into battle with Kallen. Lelouch also demanded that Kallen kill Suzaku, meaning that if he ran away, the results of the battle may not have been much different. She probably would have given chase under Lelouch's order to eliminate Suzaku.

He also willingly chose to accept death, cognizant of the fact that that he had the Live Geass still.

I don't think the "Live" order was on Suzaku's mind at the time of the battle, but let's say it was. Don't you think that the way Suzaku was speaking seemed like he was addressing the order to live, itself. He said, "I need to accept it," which I take to mean that he'll attempt to override his Geass and disobey the order. Remember, Suzaku wants to die. Of course, in the end, it didn't work out. But I don't think it was his decision to rely on the Geass. It just happened.

All in all, Suzaku is more to blame due to the fact that he willfully ignored orders and is guilty of willful negligence on the part of his Live Geass.

I can't even comprehend this statement because it implies so many different things. XD; But, yes, when it all comes down to the facts, Suzaku did fire Fleia, against his will, but all the same. Neither boy really had any inkling that this would be the final outcome and both will pay dearly.

[e-eleniel.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot for this brain storming session and your detailed, kind replies. I enjoy hearing the voice of sanity among all the insanity that is CG... Thanks again.

[misteline.livejournal.com]

No, thank you. It was wonderful contemplating Geass with you. :D So few people actually think about what they're saying and its relevance to the show BEFORE they say it. Which of course, lends itself to a broad array of misconceptions. They just want to play favorites, but it's important to acknowledge that in the world of Geass, all characters have their respective flaws, regardless of who any particular fan likes best. D:

[recodes.livejournal.com]

That was a nice debate up there, but since it originally spurred from my small comment about Lulu, Suzaku and the LIVE Geass up there, I feel like my original statement is somehow misunderstood. I did not, in any way, stated that 100% of the blame falls on Lelouch´s shoulder. I did not even say that it´s indirectly 100% his fault either. I was just making a point to people who blame Suzaku fully to actually think about the Geass put on him that prompted him into an involuntary action. They both share the responsibility for the mess this time around.

That, or this is another one of Sunrise´ famous plotholes and brainrape.

[misteline.livejournal.com]

Actually, I understood what you were implying and I agree with you. I just didn't get why some people might have been thinking that Lelouch played no part in what happened. Of course, he wasn't completely to blame, but... who really cares? The facts are: Suzaku fired FLEIA under the order to "Live" that Lelouch issued. Suzaku had no way of knowing he'd do something against his morals while under Geass. At least, not at that particular moment. No one saw it coming. Lelouch, nor Suzaku.