Code Geass Reruns

[gods-debris.livejournal.com]

The past 4 days I rewatched the entire Code Geass series (1st and 2nd) because my boyfriend had never seen it and Dan (one of his friends who has seen it) and I were making a lot of Code Geass references; and well... eventually my boyfriend's curiosity got the best of him and he decided he wanted to watch it.

But that's when I got an idea. I'm also a memeber of the Slayers anime community and a while back they had initiated a rerun schedule where they would watch an episode once every other day or once a week (I can't remember) and at the end of the day the person who set it up would post some screenshots from the episode and talk about some of their thoughts... what they forgot about, what they really liked, etc. Other members who decided to take part could post comments about what they liked as well.

So I was going to propose, as a community, we could rewatch the series. Perhaps one episode a week would be fine? It means it will take about a year to complete since there are 52 weeks in a year. In the first series there is a total of 25 episodes since 25 and 26 were combined into a 46 minute episode and in the second series there is exactly 25 episodes... meaning 50 total.

The rules are simple: if you choose to participate you do not move ahead of the schedule and watch the following episode. You must wait until the next week.

Lemme know if anyone is interested! Sorry about this sounding a bit wordy and rushed. I'm in a hurry but I wanted to get this out there because it was bugging me lol.

Comments

[nayami.livejournal.com]

This sounds interesting and a great way to review the series in its entirety. I like the one episode a week idea too since it will help drill down the focus. Though I imagine we could also discuss what the particular episode foreshadowed/contributed to the larger story (or contradicted horribly in R2), yes?

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping that's part of the point. Going through R1 and complaining along with the community about "hey they dropped this thread, I really wanted to see what they were going to do with that!" is as much a part of Code Geass for me as the robots.

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

I'd say there were more cases of just dropping or simplifying (note the difference) a plot thread rather than actively contradicting it, in all honesty, but then again having that argument would also be the point.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oh, there were outright contradictions. Lelouch majorly. I'm hoping a re-watch will allow me to better articulate what these were.

Can't pretend I haven't already done my own re-watch, but...

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

Though I hope you're not referring to the fact Lelouch contradicted himself by saying or doing something at one point and then proceeding to say or do something different later, because that's less of a contradiction in the plot and more of a contradiction in his character.

Which can usually be explained away relatively easily (humans...are contradictory beings? No!), even if it's not exactly pretty.

, but...

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Well, my biggest one aside from VERY OBVIOUSLY PUTTING NUNNALLY IN DANGER in early R2 by continuing to Zero about (when he KNEW this is what endangered Nunnally last time) was his again putting ASHFORD in danger after realizing that's what cost him Nunnally in the first place. Early R2 Lelouch demonstrated an incredible stupidity and lack of character development/learning from S1. And I find that severely unfair and contradictory to the type of calculating and learn-on-his-feet character Lelouch is supposed to be. It has always been a major thorn in my side. And I know it's entirely because of the way they had to rewrite early R2 to fit the changed schedule. But poor Lelouch. There's others but those are the most egregious contradictions. Really, Zero's entire presence in R2 is contradictory, but that's a more complicated topic that basically boils down to it should have bee another character, like they hinted in the early press material.

Re: , but...

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Could you perhaps be more specific? I'm kinda not seeing exactly what you're talking about. Once he finds out where Nunnally is, tries to rescue her, and freaks out after he fails, he leaves Japan so he doesn't have to fight her anymore. He doesn't put Nunnally and Ashford into danger until the second battle of Tokyo, at which point he puts them both into a ridiculous amount of danger for what seems to be not that great of a reason.
Honestly, even though Lelouch is a brilliant guy, he does really stupid things sometimes. "I could even make you kill all the Japanese if I wanted to!" Or when he sends Rolo after Nunnally knowing fully about Shirley. And if you want to talk about not learning from his mistakes, how long did it take him to do ANYTHING about the Lancelot, which showed up EVERY TIME in battle? Then he walked up to Suzaku and got taken hostage. A gun is a long range weapon, he didn't need to get that close.

Re: , but...

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Before he knows for sure where Nunnally is, he does know she's still in danger. He remembers her being missing and wonders if she might possibly be with Britannia. As he doesn't know for sure, it is incredibly contradictory of him to both be... legitimately functioning (as S1 showed him abandoning EVERYTHING when he realized she was missing, losing his mind when she was captured by Mao and going into hysterics when Suzaku suggested he would take her.) And suddenly, he's able to... continue doing his Zero thing. Zero WAS FOR Nunnally. Nor does R2 provide any explanation (until later) for Lelouch to be able to come to this level of rationality to still be as calculating and able to play his part as if Nunnally were completely safe. What you point out is later R2 and when the series starting correcting some of these early contradictions with Lelouch. All of that meshed perfectly with his character and could be backed up with past actions, as well as showing character growth in that Zero became about more than just making a better world for Nunnally; it became about something greater. But in early R2, by continuing to be Zero without knowing about Nunnally's condition, he is inadvertently putting her in danger because she could easily be used AGAINST him. Something he even acknowledges. orz.

Lelouch's double life as Zero while attending Ashford also puts the school in danger by default. Something he also knows because he accepted at the end of S1 that he could no longer be Lelouch Lamperouge; he pretty much becomes entirely Zero. He had prepared for this months in advance by trying to find someone who could protect Nunnally (Suzaku) when this shift happened. Suddenly playing double identify again was extremely irresponsible on his part.

And the Rolo thing was bad characterization, pure and simple. There is probably nothing in existence that can convince me that someone as smart as Lelouch, who KNEW ROLO KILLED SHIRLEY, would send him after his little sister. None. Yes, Lelouch is overconfident about his mastery of Rolo but he had just seen what he did to Shirley and he knows that Rolo took Nunnally's place. It doesn't take a rocket science to anticipate some jealousy, and with an unstable boy... yeah. It was the writers trying to handle the issue of who could get Nunnally while Lelouch did his thing. Sloppy.

As for the Euphie thing, yeah bad joke. Typical Lelouch. Fair. Making dumb mistakes with Geass? Again over-confident typical Lelouch. Suzaku? He kind of fails around Suzaku because it's Suzaku. All these things are backed fully by previous characterization. I can understand them and none stand out as contradictions. But yes, the other stuff was, admittedly, a matter of writing for a new audience and it led to massive characterization backtracking.

Sorry I just get really heated up over what they did to Lelouch many times in R2 for the sake of their time change earlier on and later to fit their fanservice narrative. I still have issues with the way the Rolo/Shirley thing just... disappeared so that most people consider Rolo just a sweet kid. orz. So just so we're clear, I'm not ranting at you, just the sloppy writing at times.

Re: , but...

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

OK, now I see where you're coming from. I suppose it is kind of a contradiction...if anything, they brought him to "Zero is for more than Nunnally" level at the beginning, then brought him back to where he was at the end of R1 and then actually walked him down the character growth path. One could say in the writers' defense that Lelouch is doing the best thing for her by regaining his forces so that he can use them to save her; he continues to pretend to be Lelouch because he knows the Emperor said "If he regains his memories then we will use Nunnally." It does bear note that he ran away from the most important battle his army ever became a part of because of Nunnally, yes, so I can see how him being rational and level-headed about her suddenly would be a contradiction...but if he doesn't become Zero and get his army together, he'll never see Nunnally again, and she will be used by the royal family. As a student, he doesn't have the capacity to bring Nunnally to safety and he wouldn't just stand by and do nothing.
Anyway, I suppose my point is that I can see where you're coming from, but I can see the reasoning behind Lelouch becoming Zero again. I think he thought of it as a necessary evil; it's his only path to power, and that's what he needs to achieve his goals.
What's annoying is that they probably could've resolved this contradiction by including a scene where he's arguing with himself or C.C. about how he could possibly save Nunnally from Britannia, and comes to the decision that even though it's an unbelievable risk, becoming Zero is the only way.

Also, I understand Lelouch being kind of stupid around Suzaku after he knew Suzaku was the Lancelot's pilot because of all the emotional baggage, but I don't think he really had an excuse to be an idiot before he knew. By the episode when he found out - kinda late in R1 - he HAD managed the foresight to analyze the Lancelot's attack patterns, but otherwise before that he didn't seem to even anticipate the Lancelot's participation in the battle.
Oh, and I'm very glad somebody else agrees that sending Rolo for Nunnally is bad characterization, plain and simple.

Re: , but...

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I would have appreciated a small scene to explain his rationale yes. Then it would have made the better fit.

Oh, I was only referring to Stage 18, where he already knew he was the Lancelot pilot and that's when he got taken hostage. But yeah, his stupidity over Lancelot was probably just his overconfident bravado. Still, it's a good point that he really SHOULD have been able to figure on the Lancelot being around in these battles. Though Lancelot is not a normal part of Britannian rank, and he might have thought they only pulled him in during special occasions... like every single time Zero attacked. |D;; Good going, Lulu.

The irony of the writers/Lelouch being sloppy about Rolo's part in the rescue mission

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

...is that the brat didn't even get the chance to come near Nunnally.

If Rolo had actually reached and attempted to kill her...whether he succeeded or not, I'd definitely question that all the way back to the source.

However, the fact is Rolo had no direct impact on the events that involved Nunnally. Rolo could have stayed in a Knightmare Frame for all of Turn 18 and the end result would be 99% of what we got. His presence didn't impact the rescue mission in any visible way.

It remains a questionable choice, whether or not we can argue about the reason why that actually happened, but one that ended up being an ultimately cosmetic matter.

I have far more concerns with the way Shirley was treated. Not so much because of her death, as a concept (that was one of her most likely fates), but simply because the event wasn't given the importance it deserved in terms of the time spent on its aftermath.

The staff did at least one small thing right by focusing on that a bit more in the R2 Special Edition (or as much as they could do by adding a monologue or two and editing, etc. but introducing no new animation), even though that's still too little, too late.

Re: , but...

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I dunno, Lelouch has repeatedly demonstrated a pointed unwillingness to learn and change from mistakes if learning from his mistakes means actually having to stop doing something he wants to do/believes necessary. See also: "Rebellion is getting innocent people killed and hurting people who you care about" -> continuing rebelling in the exact same way; "Geass can lead to angst and loss of control and craziness" -> continues using Geass.

Zero's just another thing that Lelouch doesn't actually want to give up.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

For the most part, yes, Lelouch absolutely fails at learning the most crucial lessons until near the end of the series. But I also don't think Lelouch is attached enough to Zero to knowingly jeopardize Nunnally's safety. When he did it in S1, he thought he had everything covered. In R2, Lelouch KNOWS he's at a disadvantage. He says so in the first episode, that he needs to get more power to deal with things. And more power is not the Black Knights, as he already has them. More power was more like building the Black Knights through China, which is later R2 and works. Is Rolo more power? Not considering that Lelouch almost never uses him for those early episodes and doesn't even snag him until an episode or two before he actually learns Nunnally's position. Too many variables, and I don't see Lelouch gambling with Nunnally like that. Especially considering his constant breakdowns over her (see: longer response).

It's always been a hard sell for me, and it's become worst the more I've thought about it. In general though, characterization issues aside, bringing back Lelouch as Zero was a TERRIBLE idea of R2.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

To be strictly accurate, Lelouch doesn't have most of the Black Knights at the start of R2; most of them are in prison, and he has to get them away before they are executed.

As for your "Zero is for Nunnally" comment above, I tend to go with Lelouch's comment when he's facing down his parents later on: Lelouch did what he did because he wanted to do it. Nunnally was just an important rationalization to himself, to justify wanting to do something so grand and terrible. Which is why he flips out when Nunnally is against him, because he actually has to face up to what he must of on some level feared, that it isn't what Nunnally wanted. Lelouch loves Nunnally as a person, but he also uses her as a symbol and an emotional crutch.

I think they needed to set up Lelouch as Zero in R2, so the handover to Suzaku at the end has more impact. Handing over someone else's position isn't quite as personal.

(I'm not denying there's some sloppy writing in parts - I agree on the Rolo thing. Wasn't it confirmed Rolo got a more heroic death than intended because some animators liked him?)

[nayami.livejournal.com]

This is true, but he had them when he lost the first time too. And in that scene, if my memory isn't failing, he's referring to what went wrong last time.

Oh, I agree he did things because he wanted to. But Lelouch also tells himself many many times that Zero is for Nunnally. It is his rationalization to himself, which is why I find him realizing Nunnally is in danger and then returning to Zero so... off. It is a clashing of two of his own thought processes at the same exact time. But yes, since it is really just a lie to himself, realizing Nunnally is against him crushes him.

And, as much as the whole Zero thing still bristles me, I can see the value of the impact when it comes to the handover. This is a good point.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I think Lelouch tries to tell himself he is less attached to Zero than he is (The whole "I felt dead..." stuff). It gives him a feeling of strength and power that just being Lelouch didn't really, so I can see him, in feeling powerless with the loss of Nunnally, just slipping back into it. At the very least, Zero makes Lelouch feel as if he can do something. Or maybe that and Ashford are just things that Lelouch is unwilling to give up, no matter how much these desires endanger one another. He can't rationalise it, so he just does it.

(Your criticisms interest me because I've generally seen things the other way around: That R2 started decent and "went bad" later on. I've never seen anyone criticize Lelouch as Zero in R2 before: if anything, they hate that when isn't Zero, as if Lelouch as Zero is how things should be.)

[fantasygirl49.livejournal.com]

sorry to jump in the middle like this but i disagree, lelouch being zero is a given cause his double persona gave him all that power he wouldn't give up that easily...

also lelouch fight wasn't just to create a better world for nunnally, it was to get revenge on his father evidence even after he loss everything: the black knight and when he thought nunnally died, he said he had to settle thing with his father even if he had to die trying.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Lelouch was willing to die as Zero. He is power-hungry but I also think Zero does not trump Nunnally. If Zero trumped Nunnally, Lelouch would not have abandoned his cause in S1 when he learned she was missing. This is the critical point of contradiction.

And yes, that is Lelouch's true reason. But not the reason he tells himself, which is the crux of where I see the contradiction. He tells himself it's for Nunnally. He even asks in S1 "what's the point if I've lost Nunnally." Things change in later R2 through development, but they don't apply to early R2, which is where I am focusing most of my frustration with the writing. So if Lelouch believes Zero has no point without Nunnally, why does he stay with Zero in early R2 when he doesn't even know where she is? megalomaniageek brought up some possibilities, but I would have appreciated being told this by Lelouch through some manner of scene, as usually happened with big Nunnally aspects in both S1 and R2. Otherwise, it does view very contradictory.

Again, this is heavily because the writers had admitted to changing things for the sake of the time slot. If I did not know that, I would be much more lenient.

In addition to my previous post...

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

And yet, ironically, some of us are more lenient (at least in part) because we know that (and, at the same time, do not know much about the alternative).

Particularly when you have the director himself (and others) telling us this about R2:

"If the lack of explanations this time seems to worsen the tempo, think
of it as a paring down."

Naturally, this isn't some kind of wild card that resolves everything wrong about R2, but IMHO it should make understanding the lack of explicit explanations and expositions for certain issues easier.

Even before reading this though, I never had any problem with the concept you're questioning and still don't.

To reiterate: Lelouch abandoned Zero's responsibilities as the leader of the Black Knights in the middle of a decisive battle, not the entire idea and persona of Zero.

Ideally, he would have hoped to rescue Nunnally and come back later to finish the job (not that there was any real opportunity to do so, in practice). You could argue his assuming the same persona once again was, thematically, an extension of that. As Zero, he brought chaos back to Japan and forced the Emperor to reveal his hand...which included learning about Nunnally's fate.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

It's just such a terrible excuse honestly. I understand why some are lenient, but it still makes me majorly bitter about the whole business. Also, while I have spent time making everything, including what I believe to be contradictions, fit into the box that is canon since that is the mission for every ficcer, I still enjoy the chance to express my frustration with them. Particularly when they can be compared with key episodes and a refreshed mind. That is what I meant by bringing up these things when paired with actual episodes. And this very discussion is exactly what I hope to get out of such perspectives.

And yes, Lelouch would have returned to Zero had he rescued Nunnally. But my mrr point is that Nunnally was not rescued during this portion. Again, I accept megalomaniageek's potentials, even though I stand true to the belief that it would have been less clashy had there been an IC scene instead of leaving a crucial thing up to viewer interpretation.

Like I said, that's not meant to be the final word on the matter either

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

Just an alternate way to look at it. If someone can afford to be less lenient because of it, there's no unfairness in making the same argument in the opposite direction. Same facts, two different interpretations.

But I definitely don't intend to suggest you shouldn't be frustrated by it (or by many other things). By all means, you're free (and welcome) to express your thoughts.

And it's not like I don't have my own list of frustrations and disappointments myself, even though they're probably never going to match yours 1:1...at least from what little I can already tell.

I absolutely agree about wanting to have a scene or two that would have set things up in a better way...which, unfortunately, goes for a great many developments in R2 even when they aren't actually contradicting something.

Giving us less explanations and less insight into the minds of Lelouch and the gang isn't a positive in my book.

Re: Like I said, that's not meant to be the final word on the matter either

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oh, I mostly meant that I didn't want to imply people couldn't be lenient and that I just enjoy the dissecting/bitching.

But yeah, the main point, which I possibly buried, was that I love these types of discussions and look forward to seeing more of them during the re-watch.

Other people have already answered some of this, but anyway...

[kusaja.livejournal.com]

While it's true that the scenario was re-written (and there are, most certainly, sloppy rewrites in R2 because of this), we don't know to what extent nor most of the actual details the original outline would have involved. We barely have any idea about the initial plans for the sequel, aside from some scraps people have dug up.

Having said that, even after reading your arguments here and below I definitely don't see Zero's re-appearance in early R2 as an irreconcilable contradiction myself.

Regardless of the above...I could even see your point about his characterization being "set back" in other ways, in all honesty, but not in one as basic as his having to continue to assume the Zero persona.

Zero might be for Nunnally's sake but, like others have replied, finding her isn't exactly easy for a student (or former student, if you prefer to contemplate the possibility that Ashford was going to be written out permanently) or even an exiled prince. Let's not forget that at the end of the first season Lelouch's immediate goal was to find Nunnally and, while he abandoned the Black Knights in a rush, he didn't take off his mask by choice.

In early R2, Lelouch was between a rock and a hard place: do nothing, which isn't going to make Nunnally re-appear (as far as he could tell) or become Zero and try to do something, including the eventual possibility of rescuing her himself. If doing so put Nunnally in danger, at the very least he would be informed about that fact (by Charles, Suzaku, V.V. or someone else) instead of not knowing anything at all. Which is close enough to what actually happened in the end.