R2 Episode 3 Discussion: Kindred

[nayami.livejournal.com]

It's so great to see our community activity with things aside from icons and RP ads again. All this discussion makes me a very happy Geass fan. But I still love my epic posts so here's another one. As always, no character bashing or I will eat your soul. I hear they go quite well with bread pudding.



It was refreshing to finally have an episode that gave us a chance to breathe and wrap out heads around some things without reeling from the OMG SHOCK of a moment before. I admit I was completely against an Ashford episode from the start and still believe that the plot should be dropped sooner rather than later. We were promised a world stage and yet we have yet to escape Japan. Much the same as Lelouch. Suzaku seems to be the only one with true freedom, but even that is debatable. I also think that this episode did a decent job of paralleling last season but to a much less irritating extent than previous ones. I still whine that all Lelouch did was sit on the horse. TEASES.

Since everyone is all over Rollo, I will deal with him later and instead put the perplexing issues of the episode to the forefront. The largest of these being GEASS. In Turn 2, we hear the Emperor tell Suzaku that only he knows about geass. I'm guessing this means he's the only KotR to know about geass. Clearly, other people do, although they may not know the full extent of the power. Villetta and Rollo chat about it. They also apparently bank on Lelouch's reliance on it it, a very poor move on their part, as most of Lelouch's building of his army was done without the use of his power (I will acknowledge winning them over was done through the geassing of Jeremiah and the rescue of Suzaku). Whoever is advising them that Lelouch abuses his power is working off a biased scenario. Is it Villetta's? Is it the Emperor's? Is it Suzaku's? Their observation itself is terribly hindered by the belief that Zero would immediately take action if Lelouch was back to his old ways. Again, the crew is not entirely playing with a full stack of cards. But I doubt the Emperor is this sloppy. And it's rather convenient that nobody knows what happened within Babel Tower if both of the group were apparently striving for the same thing.

I also have nit-pickery with Lelouch this time around. While I understand that the student council all had their memories rearranged to remove knowledge of Nunnally and Zero, meaning that Shirley was probably geassed a second time (a cop-out way to deal with the issue of her remembering things last season), Lelouch fully remembers what happened. I find it interesting that Lelouch is still willing to use Shirley to lure out Rollo and his other followers, knowing what he already put her through. I could even forgive this behavior, as Lelouch has always shown himself to be of the "ends justify the means" mindset if not for his later reaction. Upon Shirley pointing out the cable car, Lelouch suddenly feels guilt. Why was this guilt not present before? Did he conveniently shove it to the back of his mind? I fully believe that he feels responsible for what happened to his friends and wants to avenge them, but the combination of these two elements sat extremely awkwardly with me. It was almost like an afterthought. Even if Lelouch wouldn't know a date if it bit him on the ass, he knows how Shirley feels about him so agreeing to go do something with her would clearly count as playing into those feelings. Lelouch, you are a bastard. Though, I will add he was certainly hot when he was joking with Shirley about the spectacular trick he was going to play on the council. Talk wicked to me, baby.

People have pointed out Villetta's conflicted reaction to Ougi's fate. Interesting now that Villetta has some of the power she sought, noted by the surveillance members all referring to her as "lord." I am not sure how I feel about this since the Ougi/Villetta storyline was not one of my favorites. My interest in this is that Villetta seems somewhat... compromised and none too agitated by her role at Ashford. I would have thought a teacher would be demeaning for a warrior.

While we're exploring Britannia, we should also take a moment to brush over Schneizel and Suzaku. Some people have made some good comments about Suzaku's fight with the EU, particularly his focus on disabling rather than killing the pilots. Even if his words come across harsh, practically demanding their surrender, something feels different about this fight than his previous ones. Also Shinigami. I wonder if Suzaku did not earn the name from his homicidal battles in the Black Rebellion. There was no such quarter given then, and for good reason. Whatever Suzaku is after, there is a sense of weariness about him now. His final question to his opponents is whether they still want to continue fighting. Yes, Suzaku, may be different now, but his issues with outright killing seem to be a new spin on his old preservation. There could even be a degree more sanity involved in this style. Schneizel, who continues to be our red herring, alludes to as much when he talks about Suzaku bringing a sense of responsibility and conscience to the field. Ironic description for someone who would betray his own friend hmmm.

Lelouch has also returned to genuinely focusing on Nunnally, something that was missing quite heavily from previous episodes, and something that irked me. We see that he holds back because he's afraid of her being used as a bargaining chip, we see how resentful he is that the council has forgotten her and we see the rage toward the brother that replaced her. The locked, as some have suggested, was most likely a gift for her, purchased early, and then given to Rollo after Lelouch's memories were wiped. Hence, Lelouch's comment that a locket doesn't truly suit a boy. Ouch, Sunrise, giving them the same birthday. This is also where I point out that I love Lelouch's quiet, deadly rage when he makes this realization. Even if that one later frame was totally stole from the scene where Lelouch is watching Suzaku and Nunnally while deciding to tell Suzaku to be Nunnally's knight. As always, the majority of Lelouch's rage is turned toward his father.

Further following my attempt to sort out Lelouch's current thoughts on Suzaku is Lelouch's casual remark about Suzaku taking Arthur. Of course, it's adorable because it shows that Lelouch loev the kitty, as we all already knew. But that Lelouch automatically jumps to knowing that Arthur is with Suzaku is equally noteworthy. I have seen theories about Suzaku taking Arthur because of the cat's connection with Euphemia, thus Suzaku wanting to keep everything about Euphemia as far from Lelouch as possible. And here, I think Lelouch understands this. For his words are not bitter but a simple observation, an understanding as Lelouch always tries to boil things down to. Oh yeah, Lelouch also mentions Nina, which I assume is because she was another staple of Ashford that is now missing.

I am loving the theories I've seen floating about Rollo. While I was already intrigued by Lost Colors, the boy totally won me over with his shanking the Britannian guy and his later freakout in front of Lelouch. I am guessing Rollo is in a way a trained weapon because of his power. He may have been kept from people for a better part of his life or at least raised in a way that he felt perpetually detached. He doesn't care too much about following any orders but a prime directive, as seen in his killing of the guy who walks in on the secret of the geass. There is also his ability to switch modes, especially his creepy departure from the Chinese Embassy. I do buy into the notion that Rollo grew accustomed to his familial relationship with Lelouch and even started to believe it. He seems absolutely shocked in the scene where Lelouch gives him the locket and later reaffirms to himself that birthdays are important to people, furthering his belief that receiving the locket was a big deal. Add to that his total panic at losing it, at losing this reminder that he has family. Lelouch gave it to him! I love the raw emotion in his eyes in this scene. And his later confusion as Milly talks about Shirley possibly joining the family.

It is also hinted that Rollo doesn't want to give up his fake life, seen in Turn 1 with him trying to keep Lelouch from returning to his old ways and his attempts to convince himself that Lelouch can't possibly be this Zero in Turn 3. I especially love the way he still calls Lelouch "nii-san" because of his panic in the mall when he tries to reach Villetta. As always in geass, only an especially vicious catalyst manages to break the bond, with Rollo reverting back to "Lelouch" when Lelouch pulls a gun on him. His final words also speak to his take on his own power, referring to the geass as a "demon's eye." Perhaps Rollo resents what has happened to him because of his power; it can be suggested he is unstable with it at times. I guess here we can also toss in questions about who granted Rollo geass and how long he's had it. We've seen from Mao that geass can be given at a very young age, which I think is most likely with Rollo. But he also has managed to keep his control of it, possibly through outside influences.

I also want to give a shout-out to the music in this ep. "Masquerade" and also the cheesy but still amusing dramatic piece that plays out in the mall. I enjoyed. And I don't care what anyone says, I loved the cat-fight between C.C. and Kallen. I want more. It's not just fanservice; it's the development of their relationship, which was severely overlooked in S1.

Nope, no easy questions for you guys this time. They be in the analysis itself.

Comments

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Like you, I sighed with relief when his focus was back on Nunnally. I do like what you say about his rage, but I think that it is not a rage directed specifically at Rollo and that's why the scene is slightly different from his reaction to Euphemia's announcement - Lelouch tends to reserve this kind of personal rage to members of his family. Not even Jeremiah, who he knew in his childhood and was part of Marianne's security, gets any of that. My own pet theory is that Lelouch doesn't see betrayal as Suzaku does (cultural conditioning again? XD) . He forgives Kallen for abandoning him when he was arrested. He seems miserable about Suzaku, but I still haven't seen any real hatred there. It feels like Lelouch expects to be betrayed, but still hopes and acts as if he won't. Sure he sees Rollo as a surrogate from the powers he detest and he resents him for that, he resents his own powerlessness to save Nunnally too, but it seems to me that Rollo was not the only one affected by their fake family. Lelouch lived with this guy for one year, and you know how Lelouch is. It's too soon to tell, but I think he will see him as an ally soon enough.

Nice point about Lelouch being a bastard. I love that. XD I blame him for being a irresponsible teenager, and for being cornered by the whole execution business. He doesn't think Shirley will be in danger and so he uses her. Lelouch's survival instincts will put what he sees as necessities before his own desires. That's how he gets into most of his troubles and how he threatens his own sanity, and his reaction to Shirley's cable comment is - to me - further proof of how much Lelouch tends to repress his own feelings when he thinks he needs to. Shirley's invitation was damn convenient when it came, and I think accepting it was further example of Lelouch thinking on his feet when under pressure. But I don't want to apologize for his sake and I agree that he is a bastard. He is also starting to find out about his hormones and is learning how to use them. A very scary development.

My perception of Arthur being more than cute kitty to Suzaku and his connection to Euphie is also based on the trouble they must have gone through to erase yet another detail from Lelouch's environment. It also suggests Suzaku has more influence on the whole investigation than we have seen until now. I'd like to see if this theory is sound or just another fruit of my fancy fangirly mind.

I must confess I missed Suzaku's disarming the EU, because I'm such a girl and that totally harmed my view on that scene. XD I still see some underlying tension there, although I can't identify it clearly - it has to do with everybody's reaction to Suzaku - from Schneizel's men to the Europeans. I do agree that there is some weariness in it all, but also some awareness. This Suzaku seems to be the most aware version of himself we have seen so far, which could be taken for sanity, but not necessarily so. He seems to know the price of his ideals and it is hard to tell how much he believes and how much he *has* to believe in them at this point. His speech is interesting: would he let Lelouch off the hook if he just surrendered? It's an unlikely outcome for Lelouch, but puzzling over this would probably give us some further clues about Suzaku's real motivations and how sincere he is to himself at this point. Schneizel's comment still intrigues me - it was very IC of him, but intrigues me anyway - and I wonder how much he knows about Lelouch and Suzaku's deal with the Emperor. Anyway, I can't wait for *this* Suzaku to meet with Lelouch again. It will probably be the climax of this season. XD

I LOLed at the horse scene. Poor Nayami.

And yay for C.C. and Kallen's interaction. I like that they have spent a whole year together.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

What you said about Arthur made me think a little bit. The memory manipulation of Arthur was probably Suzaku's doing, but it theoretically could have been Nunnally, if we assume like Lelouch that she's in Britannia. It would be deliciously awful if the Emperor would hold her accountable for Lelouch's well-being. What if he made her divulge information about her brother in order to keep him alive? It certainly would turn the tables, where Nunnally would be acting behind Lelouch's back for what she perceives to be his own best interests.

After all, she's growing up, too. It's high time that she shows some form of agency. I always thought that Lelouch treated Nunnally as someone far younger than she was. Is there really a difference between how Lelouch treats Nunnally as a seven year-old and as a fourteen year-old? I didn't tend to think so.

The main thing keeping me from believing that this could happen is my inner Suzaku fangirl. I don't see him as someone who'd allow Nunnally to be exploited in that way (if he found out). It doesn't help that there's been a lot of FF12 played in my room, and I'm beginning to subconsciously see Suzaku as Gabranth. >_>

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

You know, I agree with you that the chances of using Nunnally against Lelouch are very high. I always thought she would be the ideal hostage, and I'm kind of surprised about how much Lelouch is playing his Zero role, considering he believes the Emperor has his sister. I don't know where the authors are heading with Nunnally, and what is her relationship to Rollo, but like you, I hope Nunnally will show more character traits than she has so far because she has a very important role in Geass.

I do believe that, in fact, Lelouch has grown even more protective of Nunnally as she grew older because Nunnally plays their co-dependency card so well. I do believe that Lelouch also became even more selfless about his own personal needs as he grew up. And yes, he does treat her as a child and he behaves like a single parent rather than a brother around her. I think it is important to remember that Lelouch projects a lot of himself on Nunnally - he protects himself through her, builds the world of his dreams through her, hates Charles through her and even started liking Suzaku through her. Nunnally has become - a long time ago - Lelouch's point of reference for most things, and it will be interesting to find out how he fares without her.

I'm not sure how much Suzaku has changed, but he was able to send Lelouch to Charles, knowing very well how that would affect Nunnally. I do think he would be able to let her be used for everybody's well being and ultimately what he perceives as her own possible happiness. Then again, Suzaku might be fooling us all and plotting to murder Charles when he turns his massive back on him. The boy is being remarkably mysterious this season. XD

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

LOL-ed at Suzaku as Gabranth. Ahh, too bad he doesn't have a twin. And now I'm seeing Schneizel as Vayne..

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

I guess Schneizel could be Vayne with better hair. Personally, I see him more as Treize, if we were to go by his speech and mannerisms.

Lelouch and Kallen can jointly be Ashe, C.C. is Balthier, and Rivalz is Vaan. No one is cool enough to be Larsa.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

He definitely reminds us of Treize. All that smiling without any clear purpose.. At least Treize lets us know why he exists.

No one is cool enough to be Larsa.
I agree, although in line with the sibling relationship, I fleetingly had an idea of Lelouch being Larsa, which is wrong in so many levels that I purged the thought out of my mind at once.

C.C. == Balthier will be so much =3

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I love your line about Lelouch constantly expecting betrayal while at the same time hoping against hope that it won't happen. It's so beautiful. So are you suggesting his rage is more toward the situation than Rollo himself? I thought there was quite a bit of hatred shown there, but you could be right.

Yes, he does seem to be playing up his charisma lately. I wonder what keyed him onto that.

That makes sense too. It would be a bit much to exist all memory of Arthur just for Suzaku's "I miss my kitty" fancy. But if the Emperor thought that it was another strike at Lelouch, I could see him going for it.

I still think Suzaku was under a passionate spell throughout the cave scene and afterwards, similar to how Lelouch was when he killed Clovis. It was pure emotion driving him but still allowing thoughts to filter through. But at the same time, shutting out unneeded emotions. That's why I think at this point Suzaku is more lucid and wanting to reach his ideals, but like you said fully understanding their price now.

RIDE THE DAMN HORSE, LELOUCH!

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Betrayal is such a big constant in Lelouch's life. Maybe he expects it because he is betraying them all in a way or another. And yet, as neurotic and defensive as he is, I find it surprisingly interesting how much he trusts the people he chooses to trust, to the point of being completely infatuated by his faith on Suzaku, his very first friend. Lelouch builds relationships in a very strong, reliable way even when he lies to all of them. And those bonds require an engagement that can never be half hearted (doesn't he hate doing things in a half-assed way? XD) It's a very pretty paradox - one of my favorite Lelouch's traits. But he takes responsibility for everything and considers every possibility, so no wonder he is not surprised when he gets betrayed.

It might be just me, but I think Lelouch doesn't do rage as well as Suzaku unless it is about his family. Just look at how he says their names: "Euphemia"/"Cornelia"/"Schneizel" - it's always very, very personal. When it comes to the rest of them, he is surprisingly detached, and since his ultimate enemy is basically the King of the World, he is able to make him accountable for most things that go wrong. In many aspects, hating Charles is like hating God.

So I do think he is mad at Rollo, but not that mad - and his anger dissolves into surprise and suspicion very quickly after Rollo's freaky reaction to the locket. It was something he had to pay attention to, for Lelouch's strategies are very much based on his enemies' personalities (Jeremiah's vanity, Cornelia's attachment to Euphie, etc, etc). I won't be surprised if he uses Rollo's attachment to his advantage, but it remains to be seen if Rollo will allow that to happen.

lol. I like the idea of the Emperor just being eager to mess up Lelouch's life just a little more. Still, I think Suzaku brought the cat with him for a reason and Lelouch's spot-on guess is one of those nice CG details I've got to love. XD

I also like the idea that Suzaku is more lucid now. I'm not sure if that is the case, but it will be interesting to find out. Whatever his true mindset is, Euphemia's death and Lelouch's brainwashing is something he will take into account. It's not like Genbu's murder all over again. He can't pretend those things never happened.

lol. Maybe if he rides the damn horse, he will just fall off. XD I can see little Lelouch training for many, many years to just keep still and proper so the nice pony won't get nervous. Clovis probably forced him to do that for painting purposes. Being a royal has never been so stressful.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I like that take on it. Hating Charles is like hating God. He also never refers to the Emperor as his father but instead prefers to use "that man" or some harsher version.

But you are definitely onto something about Lelouch pushing back his emotional reaction to analyze what Rollo is showing him in his response to Lelouch wanting the locket.

... You are not the first person to say that and I DISBELIEVE. Aww Clovis and Lelouch scenes. I bet Lelouch's mother could have taught him to ride. I would think that would be one of the first things young princes would go through. If just for the appearance.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

But Charles deliberately used 'my son' over and over again, except the last time when he ordered Suzaku to cover Zero's left eye. They do like to hurt each other, don't they?

[nayami.livejournal.com]

The Emperor relishes in reminding Lelouch he is a prince because in doing so, he is reminding him of what he lost and at the same time reminding him of what he is, hinting at the closeness between them. Lelouch despises Britannia but can't escape his blood. As for the not referring to Lelouch as "his son" or a prince when he was addressing Suzaku, it was because he was addressing Suzaku. I find it very interesting that he chose to play to Suzaku's distancing himself from Lelouch by using "Zero" instead of anything else, not even Lelouch.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

Lelouch learns from the best XD

Using 'Zero' to distance Suzaku from Lelouch seems particularly apt. I wonder how Charles found out about his son's relationship with Suzaku though, seeing that he just met Suzaku this one time and of course Lelouch hadn't been writing to him 'Dear Papa, etc etc' during his six-month stay in Japan seven years ago, hadn't he?

[vspirit.livejournal.com]

Hm...I'm pretty sure the Emperor would've known that Suzaku and Lelouch are best of friends since young. After all, Suzaku /is/ the late Japanese prime minister's son and the Emperor had known full well that Lelouch and his sister would be in the prime minister's custody when he sent them in as political hostages.

[vspirit.livejournal.com]

...oh hey. i just realized. it's you.

xxxxD

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

And it's you XD

I certainly won't put it past Charles that he knows about Suzaku being Lelouch's friend long time ago. What bugs me is how he finds out that Lelouch still matters to Suzaku and vice versa and therefore sees it necessary to break the bond.

[vspirit.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, as far as Britannia's concerned, Lelouch is presumed dead as a casualty from the first war, huh? Totally forgot about that.

Well, the breaking of bond thing is merely conjecture on the fan's part so it may or may not be accurate. Perhaps he did it precisely because he didn't know? After all, Suzaku's a third party in that scene and he probably assumed that as a third party, he'd identify Lelouch with his Zero persona more. The fact that Lelouch /is/ Zero is known to only a very select few anyway so everyone else would still only know Zero as the masked terrorist kind of facilitates this theory, I think.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

Well, the breaking of bond thing is merely conjecture on the fan's part

And we're so deluded that we can't think straight anymore XD Charles is an enigma. He seems like a character who knows everything and yet we can't be sure because the series hasn't told us clearly.

Need. Episode. Four. Now.

[vspirit.livejournal.com]

Need. Episode. Four. Now.

Need. Chapter. Two. And. Chapter. Six. Respectively. NAO.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Ah yes. It's a lovely father and son relationship and Lelouch X his parents is one of my favorite CG themes. Also, I want Charles to surprise me. Lelouch is very good at letting people think the worst of him. Maybe Charles is exactly the same. The series has been very good at drawing parallels so far - from the demented laughter, going through their shade of violet, to the power to curb people's wills. Charles'reaction to Marianne's death can be read as detachment, but it could also have been read as pain. "My mother is dead."/"Why do you tell me something I already know?" - such a lovely, lovely scene. It's the Golden Bough all over again, I tell you. XD

[lulu-quality.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hope you're right. That sounds really fitting considering how alike they are. Maybe we should try to regard Charles' actions as if they were coming from Lelouch? That might help us understand him more, providing that the prior assumption is correct. I demand a fanfic! Please <3?

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

LOL. Fanfic has already been written. It's called Flash in the Pan. XD There might be others with the same cracky background, tho. As long as Charles doesn't turn Fei Wong Reed on me. I'd hate to see that happen.

You have no idea how much I pray for a remotely human Charles. I have no love for him, but I love CG's shades of gray.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

I never saw Charles's reaction to Marianne's death as anything but detachment, but that's a good theory there. I sometimes forget that there's no total black or white character in CG. Hoping we'll know more about him in R2.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Pain? Now there's a new theory. It would certainly make the Emperor much more than he has been portrayed as.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I've been cooking this theory for ages because I really, really, REALLY want Charles to be something more than a monochrome villain. I mean, for GOD'S SAKE, it is Geass *pleads with Sunrise* You have no idea how much I want this to be true because it would make the story so much better. I've re-watched that scene like... I don't know, three thousand times, and his reactions seem kind of ambiguous to me - something about his voice, eyes and choice of words. I really hope the guy has some feelings and the parallels with Lelouch are all there, but as I said, it might be just wishful thinking.

Love your traumatized! Lulu. <333333