Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

The fact that Suzaku gets less screen time is, in my opinion, the exact reason why it IS up for debate. We're pretty sure on how Lelouch thinks by now, but not Suzaku, so you can't toss out certainty about anything he does because we simply don't have proof.

Like I said, we can't be certain whether Suzaku's plan would've work. I said slowly because it wasn't like the entire population of Japan was there. There's bound to be unhappy or unwilling people to join Euphie's clan, even if the people actually there were curious and were willing to give her a chance. Japan is well-populated, it will take a LONG time to get everyone on Euphie's side. Nothing in Geass is instantaneous. You're making speculations involving "what if's" that are not shown in the anime, so as reasonable as they are, they're still speculations. As are mine, of course, so I'm not saying that I'm 100% sure about Lelouch actions either.

Also, about the accident analogy, it doesn't necessarily mean that Lulu is evil for using the Geass. He didn't ASK for it. He got it through actually doing something good, namely saving C.C. when he didn't have a clue who she was or what she was doing. If he simply sat at home and didn't use it because it was against his morals, that would've made for a very stupid story. :-/ He's an ambitious character and by nature, he's going to use the power. I don't agree with his plan to Geass Euphie to begin with, but as you did point out, he WAS willing to let her go through with her plan at that point, and that makes all the difference when his power goes bonkers and wrecks havoc on her.

And about him geassing people to die in general, I still stick with my theory that Lelouch is, above all else, a prince. Like Cornelia and the Emperor and so many others in the Royal Family, he doesn't really understand the concept of having common people be as important as him, Nunally or his plans are. He has a mentality very similar to the Emperor's so it shouldn't be that surprising that he's so willing to send people into battle and to shed blood all for his own cause. His scene with Shirley and his shock that her father died is just another example of how much he doesn't understand the concept of common people/soldiers being important.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm wow, just wow. I have no words if you don't even want to give credence to what Suzaku actually says in the series because you want to interpret his actions under a specific light. o_O; I guess this explains to me finally why so many people seem to hate Suzaku.

No, we didn't get to see how long it would have taken for everyone in Japan to be free, however, Suzaku's plan looked like it probably would have worked with considerably less bloodshed and possibly just as fast as any plan of Lelouch's. It's not speculation that Lelouch completely ruined Euphie's attempt to put Suzaku's plan into action. It's not speculation that Lelouch went to meet Euphie with the plan to geass her in order to wreck said plan even if he later changed his mind. He was still willing to sacrifice a beloved and innocent sister to feed his desire for revenge. Perhaps you feel it would have made a stupid story for Lelouch never to have used his geass, but working within the story, Lelouch does have that choice and because he is ambitious and because he has always planned to seek revenge on Britannia (something he tells CC) he has made his choice.

I take umbrage at all the posts claiming Suzaku's plan was unrealistic, impossible, and pure fantasy. It wasn't and at one point in the story seemed like it had a chance to succeed.

I don't think Lelouch is evil, I just don't find him sympathetic at all and I don't agree with his methods at all. I don't feel bad for him and I admit, in R2 I take great pleasure in seeing Suzaku, Lolo, Nunally, your choice of characters disrupt his plans and give him some of the comeuppance he so richly deserves. I do think he is an extremely selfish character who has a hard time seeing anything past himself and what he wants and what he thinks other characters should want.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's because it's finals week and I haven't watched all the R2 episodes all the way through. -___-;; Hence why I'm not bringing up a lot of R2 moments because I haven't seen them yet. I was mainly referring to Season 1, you see my points above.

And stop getting offended and using "um". It's extremely rude in a civil debate to give that sort of attitude. I mean absolutely no offense to Suzaku or your views, I'm just stating my views, and it makes me extremely irritated to see that word continuously come up in this conversation.

Fine, that's just how you see Lelouch. I'm not going to disuade you from that, everyone views everyone differently. Suzaku is a honorable character, and he has strengths along with weaknesses, but that doesn't make him a perfect guy in any sense. You seem inclined to view Lelouch in a certain light so fine, I'm not going to change that either. But dont' get angry at others for seeing Suzaku under a certain light as well, seeing that both of them are imperfect in many different ways.

I never once said that Suzaku's plan was unrealistic or impossible. I did say that *I* would never take his path because it's very hard for me to NOT hold a grudge if someone turned my country into a territory without provocation. But that's what he is as a character, and I respect that. But you also have to respect that Lulu is inherently different from Suzaku and doesn't function at nearly the save wavelength. They had very different childhoods and very different experiences, and in Lulu's eyes, his mother's death and the betrayal of Britannia makes all his actions worth it.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But this discussion topic is specifically debating and discussing episode 06 of R2/R2 in general. The original poster was specifically posting about how the characters and the story has developed in R2. While I appreciate you wanting to share your opinion, it seems a bit unfair of you to ignore the character information and growth we've been given in R2 because you are rightly more involved in school right now.

I can't remember which respondent it was now, but there are several responses to this thread where Suzaku's plan was called unrealistic and the impression was given that it was naive and impossible. I think it is important to remember that within the world of Geass the plan was plausible and could have come to pass. I think that gets forgotten with the tragedy of Euphie and her murderous rampage.

I'm sorry if you feel I was being rude. It was not my intention.