Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[dollhouse--x.livejournal.com]

well i think nunnally isn't brainwased because i wouldn't go that far, but he DID use her to test whether lelouch has recovered his memory.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Arguably, there are a lot of points you have there that could be completely flipped around. Suzaku is VERY different from what he was like in the first season, and while how much he's using Nunally is totally up for debate, he's definitely not the all-niave and lets-do-everything-the-nice-way guy he used to be.

Also, Lelouch... I don't necessarily agree with you there. Like with Death Note, the main character isn't necessarily evil or completely doomed to fail. Lelouch is extremely intelligent, but he comes across as niave to me. The only people he wants to kill are in the Royal Family. He's so incredibly driven by this goal that yes, he is willing to kill others and to destroy armies of people, but that doesn't mean he's out to spill as much blood as possible. He's simply doing what he believes is necessary.

And yes, his view on that is extremely warped by now because he's digging a huge hole under himself, but it wasn't like he was OUT to kill Euphie. We all know how that one went down, he opted to take the only route he thought he had --to use the advantage for his own good. I don't think his "you were probably my first love" line was faked, imho. If he had his choice, Euphie wouldn't have died and he would have willingly ditched the Black Knights to save Nunally, which to me, was a HUGE decision and made him very different from Yagami Light in Death Note, who simply lost all love for anyone. Right now, and at the end of Season 1, he was in so much trouble that he was spontaneously making decisions. He knew that no one would believe him if he said he didn't want to kill Euphie, so he didn't bother. That didn't mean he didn't want to say something though.

And honestly, I think Lelouch is much more believable than Suzaku (from Season 1, anyways.) We've all wanted vengence, we've all hated people, we've all got a dark side. That's just human nature. Suzaku didn't become interesting to me until he became more like Lelouch, because I don't think most people would say "I want to change this country from the inside" when that country took over the country that was originally there and lead to the degradation of your homeland.

I'm rambling, sorry. ^^; Just my thoughts.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

I'm not hugely active in Geass fandom either (read: not active at all in Geass fandom), but I can see where they're coming from. Suzaku's goals completely overlook the people immediately in front of him and he would sacrifice those close to him for the Greater Good (whatever the hell that is). It's kind of hard to sympathize with a character like that.

Also, his attitude is kind of like, "OH DON'T WORRY. THEY CONQUERED OUR YOUR COUNTRY PURELY OUT OF GREED, MADE ALL OF THE JAPANESE CITIZENS MORE OR LESS SLAVES, AND MURDER YOU ALL AT WILL. BUT IT'S OKAY! I WILL REFORM THEM AND WE CAN ALL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER! =DDD ♥" Which, as you can imagine, wouldn't be too popular either. Revenge is way easier to relate to.

It more or less amounts to this: Suzaku thinks with his head and Lelouch and EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD thinks with his heart. Thus, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD agrees with Lelouch and disagrees with Suzaku. =P Sucks to be him?

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Lawl, that's actually a great way to put it. XD The head vs. heart part. Unfortunately, I'm definitely a heart person. << >>;;

[dxanato.livejournal.com]

Is easier to think of the worse of Suzaku cause the larger number of hater for Suzaku. I do agree with you that Nunnaly would never access a world where blood was spill on her behalf. She happy with just having her brother around.

[sabrac.livejournal.com]

Well I believe both of them have good reasons to fight, and they have their own sense of justice so if you look throught their eyes you'll realize no one is a bad person they are just fighting for what they believed in, in the end they will have to fight and see whose justice is the correct one. I think...

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

I agree with these sentiments.

Code Geass tends to be extremely gray in terms of right and wrong. LeLouch, despite both the question acts and questionable motivation for his actions, isn't inherently in the wrong in what he does. Britannia has been oppressing many peoples for a long while so it was inevitable that someone would rise against them. Lelouch may be using the people of Japan, but it isn't really wrong. While his goal is to create a world where Nunally can live in peace, that inherently extends to all the weak and oppressed people in the world, which means that his selfish actions are beneficial for others.

I hold no illusions that LeLouch is knight of justice and virtue, but he's not a bad or evil person at heart - he's a person that knows morally questionable things have to be done to really change the world that they live in. Certainly, he's killed people and used people, but that doesn't make him a bad person. Similarly, Suzaku is using Nunally. By attempting to draw out Lelouch, he used her. That isn't an inherently bad thing - he's doing what he needs to try and make the world a better place. He's not hurting her in the process. The problem is that even if Suzaku is a more moral person and character, he's ironically backing the antagonist and thus becomes an antagonist. All of his actions ultimately benefit the Britannian Empire and Charles and thus decrease the chance that the world will ultimately change. When compared to Lelouch, whose actions tend to be more questionable but affect the world in a better manner, it becomes clear why people side with Lelouch.

LeLouch really does care about the people around him. He never really wanted to hurt Euphie and desperately wanted to avoid using Geass on Suzaku, which speaks loads about how much he does value his real, human connections.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

He's willing to kill innocent people whenever he feels like it. Even in ep 6, he could have easily Geassed those two fleeing Britannian doctors I think they were to just go away or leave him alone. But no, he instead chose to kill them for no reason that I saw. He clearly does not see other people as having the same level of worth as himself or Nunally. I don't think he'd hesitate to pull the trigger on one of the school characters if he thought he'd benefit from it.

Lelouch isn't as sociopathic as Light, but I think he's clearly following the same path. And I really can't see how anyone could think that Light was anything but self interested evil working to get what he wanted and addicted to his own power. And I like Light a lot and was really intrigued that the series protagonist was in all affects its villain, but still, I don't think we were ultimately supposed to think that what he was doing was right. Lelouch is essentially working as a terrorist and I just can't support or see terrorism as the right way to go. I'm glad Nunally agrees.

Suzaku has made mistakes, yes, and he's clearly changed and been affected by the things that have happened. But I still think that he's operating nowhere near the level of villainy that Lelouch is. I think he's in the most difficult position in the whole series. Suzaku has much more at stake if he makes a mistake than Lelouch does.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

It's not even that Lelouch and everyone don't use their heads - it's just that Suzaku has such an abstract, unusual idea of how to make the world a better place that it's difficult to find someone that'd agree with it.. He was thinking with his peen for most of season 1 anyway.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* Exactly. ^^ Awesome points!

Just to add on; right now, I think Suzaku and Lelouch are on the exact same table. Lelouch fights for revenge on his mother's part, and for a better world for Nunally. (This is supposed to become really apparent in the next episode... according to rumors. I honestly have no idea.) Suzaku WAS fighting for a better world in general, but now he's also clouded by narrow-minded revenge --for Euphie. The only difference is, Lelouch still has the one person he cares about the most, and in my opinion, unless he's got some other great love out there, Suzaku doesn't.

Heck, at some points in Season 1, it seemed like his friendship with Lulu was undefeatable. Even by ep. 26, Lelouch was reluctant to throw that away, but Suzaku was so ANGRY at the end of Season 1 that he didn't seem to care.

So there's another reason why people may side with Lulu there. :-/ Even at the end of Season 1, he was showing affection by trying to safe Nunally, and Suzaku was showing no affection at all, not even to someone he considered one of his best friends.

[ex-untidy401.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I completely agree with you - but then again, watching this series is a subjective experience. You pick sides with the character you relate to the most. I don't think people's reactions to Suzaku are necessarily entirely based on his canon actions: more upon the fact that they sympathize more with Lelouch.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

But he was completely betrayed by that person that he thought was one of his best friends. In Suzaku's eyes, he just saw Euphie murdered by Lelouch, her plans to help Japan ruined. By Lelouch. So he's just lost someone he loved at the hands of the other person he loved along with all of his hopes being shattered. I think there's only so much a person can take and really don't see how people can blame him for being angry at Lelouch and hurt?

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

xD No, it's totally fine. I'm a heart person myself.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Well, he did hesitate for Shirley. :-/ There are numerous places where Lelouch has extremely bad fights with his human side, mainly involving Suzaku and Shirley. And Euphie, of course.

Well, let's think about it this way. Lelouch was born a prince. He still has the mentality of the Royal Family in which he has no fear of ordering people into battle and shedding blood for his own purpose. That doesn't make him any worse than, say, the Emperor or Cornelia, except that he has the power of Geass. He's not use the concept of holding other people that he doesn't know anywhere close to people that he DOES know.

Suzaku was born a normal kid. He has a much better concept of how valuable every person is. He seemed to disagree with Zero's tactics, but I was kind of shocked that he didn't disagree with Cornelia or the Emperor's tactics. (Well, I suppose he's not in the position to...)

Again, Code Geass is not one-handed slaughter at the hands of Lelouch. Lelouch is losing men too. It's basically war. :-/ Also, we can't call Lelouch a terrorist without considering both sides. From the eyes of the Japanese, he is far from a terrorist. Japan didn't ASK to be taken over. Britannia is the biggest pushover ever, and that doesn't necessarily make them 'right' because they won over all the countries. We're getting into heavy debates about right and wrong of wars now so I'll stop, lol.

Light... Light was interesting. XD He still ended up being my favorite character, but we should probably leave the debates about Death Note to the DN forums.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm have you never heard of Martin Luther King Jr? He certainly thought with his heart and was working within the system to end discrimination based on previous slavery for his people.

Suzaku does not overlook the people in front of him, he definitely seems to care for all of them, was he not the one who tried desperately in the hoteljacking episode to rescue the hostages because he saw that Shirley, Milly and Nina were among those being held?

I happen to think with my heart but I rather strongly disagree with Lelouch, particularly since his reasons for revenge have nothing to do with Japan He's just using the Black Knights and their goals to fight against Britannia. Kirihara knew this in Season 1, Todou seems to recognize it as well. I'm not really sure why so many fans don't.

I don't really think Lelouch is all that believable, he's beyond wanting revenge, he has very strong sociopathic tendencies. I think a lot of people want revenge, but I worry about this world if so many people think it's OK if they feel wronged to start murdering indiscriminately. And while one could argue he was not out to murder Euphie per se, one still has to wonder why at that moment he lost power over his geass and why he picked to give that command. He also was rather happy to use her actions and her death to his own benefit.

Suzaku at least TRIES to be moral. As shown in R2 Episode 03, he at least gives his foes a chance to surrender, which is a lot better than Lelouch.

BTW FireBird ummm no, from as soon as we find out Raito has been gleefully using his death note it's pretty clear the boy is sociopathic and a little messed up in the head. I wouldn't call him evil necessarily but I would call him mentally disturbed. ^^;

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I am having trouble sleeping and because it comes up every post on the issue. Geass =/= Death Note.

/end rant

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Right. I'm not going to disagree about that one. But now Suzaku is adopting Lulu's techniques, with or without the Geass, and I don't think that makes him a better person because of it. :-/

Also, Lelouch's mother was murdered by someone in his family, and he's already pretty convinced it's his own FATHER. That's hardly better than being betrayed by a best friend with no blood relation.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Yeah. You can't completely think of Suzaku as a bad guy due to his actions at the end of Season 1 because his feeling are understandable. It's not fair to Euphie that she will be remembered for going crazy and having to be killed. But, sadly, the fact that Suzaku disregarded their friendship and handed Lelouch over to the king is disappointing because of the effect. It'd been one thing if LeLouch had died, but he was instead made to forget his precious sister and live a fake life in its stead which, to me, is far more depressing than death.

I can't hate him for giving up on their friendship but it's disappointing and makes his character less easy to relate to and more of a viallain.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Actually I'm mainly just refuting the Light being evil part. ^^; The author herself said specifically that Light was NOT EVIL, just dishonorable. Which I think is a very interesting choice of words. ^^;

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Well, for their ideas of a 'better world,' they do. Kind of.

Lelouch's actions are pretty much focused on one thing: keeping Nunally safe. She is the closest thing to his heart, and so she's the only thing he really considers. In his 'better world,' Nunally is safe and happy and no one would ever try to use her. He saw that some people tried to use her once before, and so this goes against his whole world view and he attacks them, regardless of consequences or his chance of success.

Suzaku, on the other hand, strives for a world that's as good as possible for everyone (or at least, all the Japanese). Logically, it makes a whole lot more sense to do it his way. There's less bloodshed all around, it's a less dramatic revolution. But he has to put aside his feelings. He has to accept that if his close friends are killed in the name of his goal, he can't do anything about it and he has to put his feelings aside for his ideals.

Then again, PENISES > ALL

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* I do feel for Suzaku, I really do. What was done to him and Euphie was absolutely terrible. But at the same time, if you adopt his technique, if he stepped back from it all, you just have to wonder why he didn't give Lelouch 'another chance'. After all, Britannia basically took over Japan and Suzaku was willing to give Britannia a chance, despite everything it's done. I guess being in love changes everything. :(

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Even if his reasons have nothing to do with Japan or the rest of the world, that doesn't mean that the results of his actions don't positively affect them. The thing is that the world of Code Geass is a world of war - one where death is ultimately inevitable. LeLouch recognizes this and understands that against a power like Britannia he may have to abandon his humanity to make change possible. Suzaku may be the more moral character but the results of his actions aren't going to have the same potential that Lelouch's will - they ultimately can't make the world a better place because they keep Britannia in power.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

What makes it all ironic is that despite LeLouch's actions being self-centered, they ultimately have more of a potential to make the world a better place than Suzaku's. Don't get me wrong, Suzaku is clearly the more moral character and his method generally works better, but because he is backing a Monarchy, there's somewhat of a limit on what he can/can't change.

[kuroshin.livejournal.com]

It does not surprise me though.... Lelouch's "right villainy" helps the people of Japan by fighting off Briatnnia, even if his methods may be wrong they're benficial to Japan.

Suzaku's method might be right but siding with Britannia who has harrassed japan for so long, all the right in Suzaku's method becomes wrong. I can call it "villainous good" for Suzaku.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Is it really any more of a world of war than the world we currently live in?

I think Lelouch is picking to abandon his humanity because he never quite saw others as being his equal to start with. ^^;