Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[dollhouse--x.livejournal.com]

well i think nunnally isn't brainwased because i wouldn't go that far, but he DID use her to test whether lelouch has recovered his memory.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Arguably, there are a lot of points you have there that could be completely flipped around. Suzaku is VERY different from what he was like in the first season, and while how much he's using Nunally is totally up for debate, he's definitely not the all-niave and lets-do-everything-the-nice-way guy he used to be.

Also, Lelouch... I don't necessarily agree with you there. Like with Death Note, the main character isn't necessarily evil or completely doomed to fail. Lelouch is extremely intelligent, but he comes across as niave to me. The only people he wants to kill are in the Royal Family. He's so incredibly driven by this goal that yes, he is willing to kill others and to destroy armies of people, but that doesn't mean he's out to spill as much blood as possible. He's simply doing what he believes is necessary.

And yes, his view on that is extremely warped by now because he's digging a huge hole under himself, but it wasn't like he was OUT to kill Euphie. We all know how that one went down, he opted to take the only route he thought he had --to use the advantage for his own good. I don't think his "you were probably my first love" line was faked, imho. If he had his choice, Euphie wouldn't have died and he would have willingly ditched the Black Knights to save Nunally, which to me, was a HUGE decision and made him very different from Yagami Light in Death Note, who simply lost all love for anyone. Right now, and at the end of Season 1, he was in so much trouble that he was spontaneously making decisions. He knew that no one would believe him if he said he didn't want to kill Euphie, so he didn't bother. That didn't mean he didn't want to say something though.

And honestly, I think Lelouch is much more believable than Suzaku (from Season 1, anyways.) We've all wanted vengence, we've all hated people, we've all got a dark side. That's just human nature. Suzaku didn't become interesting to me until he became more like Lelouch, because I don't think most people would say "I want to change this country from the inside" when that country took over the country that was originally there and lead to the degradation of your homeland.

I'm rambling, sorry. ^^; Just my thoughts.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

I agree with these sentiments.

Code Geass tends to be extremely gray in terms of right and wrong. LeLouch, despite both the question acts and questionable motivation for his actions, isn't inherently in the wrong in what he does. Britannia has been oppressing many peoples for a long while so it was inevitable that someone would rise against them. Lelouch may be using the people of Japan, but it isn't really wrong. While his goal is to create a world where Nunally can live in peace, that inherently extends to all the weak and oppressed people in the world, which means that his selfish actions are beneficial for others.

I hold no illusions that LeLouch is knight of justice and virtue, but he's not a bad or evil person at heart - he's a person that knows morally questionable things have to be done to really change the world that they live in. Certainly, he's killed people and used people, but that doesn't make him a bad person. Similarly, Suzaku is using Nunally. By attempting to draw out Lelouch, he used her. That isn't an inherently bad thing - he's doing what he needs to try and make the world a better place. He's not hurting her in the process. The problem is that even if Suzaku is a more moral person and character, he's ironically backing the antagonist and thus becomes an antagonist. All of his actions ultimately benefit the Britannian Empire and Charles and thus decrease the chance that the world will ultimately change. When compared to Lelouch, whose actions tend to be more questionable but affect the world in a better manner, it becomes clear why people side with Lelouch.

LeLouch really does care about the people around him. He never really wanted to hurt Euphie and desperately wanted to avoid using Geass on Suzaku, which speaks loads about how much he does value his real, human connections.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

I'm not hugely active in Geass fandom either (read: not active at all in Geass fandom), but I can see where they're coming from. Suzaku's goals completely overlook the people immediately in front of him and he would sacrifice those close to him for the Greater Good (whatever the hell that is). It's kind of hard to sympathize with a character like that.

Also, his attitude is kind of like, "OH DON'T WORRY. THEY CONQUERED OUR YOUR COUNTRY PURELY OUT OF GREED, MADE ALL OF THE JAPANESE CITIZENS MORE OR LESS SLAVES, AND MURDER YOU ALL AT WILL. BUT IT'S OKAY! I WILL REFORM THEM AND WE CAN ALL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER! =DDD ♥" Which, as you can imagine, wouldn't be too popular either. Revenge is way easier to relate to.

It more or less amounts to this: Suzaku thinks with his head and Lelouch and EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD thinks with his heart. Thus, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD agrees with Lelouch and disagrees with Suzaku. =P Sucks to be him?

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Lawl, that's actually a great way to put it. XD The head vs. heart part. Unfortunately, I'm definitely a heart person. << >>;;

[dxanato.livejournal.com]

Is easier to think of the worse of Suzaku cause the larger number of hater for Suzaku. I do agree with you that Nunnaly would never access a world where blood was spill on her behalf. She happy with just having her brother around.

[sabrac.livejournal.com]

Well I believe both of them have good reasons to fight, and they have their own sense of justice so if you look throught their eyes you'll realize no one is a bad person they are just fighting for what they believed in, in the end they will have to fight and see whose justice is the correct one. I think...

[ex-untidy401.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I completely agree with you - but then again, watching this series is a subjective experience. You pick sides with the character you relate to the most. I don't think people's reactions to Suzaku are necessarily entirely based on his canon actions: more upon the fact that they sympathize more with Lelouch.

[kuroshin.livejournal.com]

It does not surprise me though.... Lelouch's "right villainy" helps the people of Japan by fighting off Briatnnia, even if his methods may be wrong they're benficial to Japan.

Suzaku's method might be right but siding with Britannia who has harrassed japan for so long, all the right in Suzaku's method becomes wrong. I can call it "villainous good" for Suzaku.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I am having trouble sleeping and because it comes up every post on the issue. Geass =/= Death Note.

/end rant

Quick notes before work

[nayami.livejournal.com]

1. Nunnally not brain-washed. Fan opinion retarded and has no basis.
2. Yes, Suzaku is completely justified for almost anything he does. He sees Lelouch as an insane murderer, has no reason not to and has to protect those he still can.
3. Lelouch does not use people close to him. Rollo is not close to him; he doesn't like Rollo. I do hope he's rethinking at the moment because Rollo didn't have to bail his ass out there. The Shirley thing is debatable but he ensured she would not be hurt.
4. This version of Nunnally is also appealing to me, and I am intrigued by the idealogy clash between the siblings. We already knew from the drama CDs that Euphie and Nunnally were very similar.
5. I too want Nunnally's reaction to Lelouch being Zero because I think she's the only person who can make him see reason right now. I admit he's killing more than he usually does and while I do not justify it, I also think it's a direct result of being so mentally fucked up right now. A whole year living someone else's life and then waking up to find the very thing you value more than existence so far away from you, literally and figuratively. He's not operating on full capacity. Nunnally fucks him up. Still yeah, I was pissed when he killed the doctors. Autopilot!Lelouch is a real bastard.
6. While Lelouch did use Japan in S1, he did so, intending to still give them their results, as he tells Kallen. I think in R2, he has shown he is more sincere about his supporters' actual plight. But no, the Black Knights should not have so readily forgave him. That was retarded.
7. LELOUCH WOULD NEVER FUCK OVER NUNNALLY. Lelouch could have taken Nunnally at the end of Turn 6 if his goals superseded hers. He deliberately waited, and that's why he lost. His conflict. Lelouch does sincerely love Nunnally, and he is pretty damn crazy. I don't think his methods should be agreed with, but he is right that there is very little way to protect Nunnally if Britannia stands. He is also right to fear her being used as a political too, with the Emperor around.
8. Both boys have their crimes. Both boys have their own mindsets. Both are fascinating, and I detest seeing defenses for one that twist facts to bash the other. Love whichever one you want or both but don't confuse the other for the sake of your support.

[interstellar.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I'd just put it down to protagonist power - we see a lot more of Lelouch, so we can see how he comes to these various conclusions, why he does what he does. Suzaku, on the other hand, is still more mysterious. We just don't get to see as much of why he does what he does, because he's not the protagonist. Personally, I can understand and even agree with Suzaku's visions, even if he is terribly idealistic. He truly wants what's best for Japan, his whole 'become the Knight of One' scheme proves that. Even if he's got a personal vendetta against Zero (which hello, totally understandable after Zero killed his princess; Suzaku doesn't seem to know it was an accident, I doubt anyone knows), I think Japan will still be Suzaku's top priority.

And yeah, I definitely don't think Suzaku brainwashed Nunally. Right from the beginning of the series, she agreed with peace. She's always been more like Euphemia, it's nothing new. I just hope she makes it to the end of the series. :X

[sephyelysian.livejournal.com]

I don't think you can argue that either of them is standing on terribly high moral ground as they've both done things that can be viewed as reprehensible. Lelouch killed Euphemia and Suzaku committed patricide - each for their own reasons. From the point of view of the Japanese people, you could argue that what Suzaku did in killing his father and effectively ending the fighting, fucked over the country in terms that they were /no/ longer a nation and became second class citizens. You can equally argue that Lelouch is making their lives worse by waging his war.

I don't think Suzaku brainwashed Nunnally. I think she made a choice as most of the main characters in this series has. Which is kind of one of the points of the series -- people in war time don't behave as they might in times of peace. They can and sometimes do make decisions that someone standing outside of the situation might view as horrible. And people /are/ selfish. Selfishness is part of human nature and without that to measure by, you can't really have altruism. ^^;;

I enjoy the series because there's precisely so much gray area and there's not a clear cut good guy/bad guy and that the character dynamics shift with the ongoing situation.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

I <3 you. Really. Simply because of the gray area line. That's the whole AWESOMENESS of Code Geass and it makes me wince to see either side being called evil or wrong. X_x

[inulovinkit.livejournal.com]

Um.

I have to disagree with you. While Lulu may not be the most morally correct person out there, it's not like he goes around Sweeney Todd-ing people in the dark of the night. :/

He understands the one law of the world: You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty.

For every movement that had peaceful resistance, there was violent resistance as well. More often than not, it was the violent resistance that turned the tide. And I think we can all agree that Britannia is a country that NEEDS to be overthrown--What Lelocuh appears to be doing seems like more of a moral goal than many of the Britannian's goals.

BUT, Lelouch does use people as pawns for his own goal--of creating a peaceful world for Nunnally. He has learned, somewhat, that his actions will cause death to innocents, but he even said in his own words "I will continue to spill blood, so the blood that has already been spilled was not in vain."

And he does not always tell people to kill themselves with his Geass "Ignore us" "Forget everything odd about us" "I'd like to have your Knightmare?" anyone? Usually, when he orders people to kill themselves with his geass, it's when he needs to prevent his plan being found out, or when he's in an emotional state.

Lelouch, while sometimes giving us a questionable view of his sanity--is doing something that happens all the time in our world--He's WAGING A WAR. In order to wage a successful rebellion like he is, you NEED to be as ruthless as possible. The type of warfare he is using--guerrilla tactics, while effective and pretty much their only option--do not give for taking prisoners. That's just the way it is. :/

And why do people side with Lelouch over Suzaku? Because it's called "Lelouch of the Rebellion" not "Suzaku of Britannia". That, and Lelouch is a more interesting character than Suzaku--up until R2, anyway.

[jusrecht.livejournal.com]

That, and Lelouch is a more interesting character than Suzaku--up until R2, anyway. -> This, I think is fairly subjective because in all honesty, I find Suzaku a lot more interesting than Lelouch. But I agree that we can differ in this point ^^

[kosquarepelli.livejournal.com]

I've been in spirited conversations arguing that Nunally is being used to a degree, and generally find Lelouch more interesting than Suzaku, but I agree with the OP on pretty much all points. For a non-Death Note point of comparison, maybe the title character of Gankutsuou/The Count of Monte Cristo? Like Lelouch, he's motivated by revenge, ruthless in its pursuit, a cold-blooded murderer and schemer, wrong by most any objective standard -- and still fascinating.

ETA: A friend also suggested Sweeney Todd in the same vein, although I'm actually the one person on LJ who isn't familiar with the musical OR the movie. ^^;

[tungwene.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say Nunnally is brainwashed. Horribly misguided, misinformed, and left in the dark from knowledge pertinent to the situation by the people who are supposed to be protecting her, yes. My annoyance with Suzaku in the matter is he hasn't explained peep about Lelouch, if not outright lied to her about him, and for now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't worked up the guts to tell Nunnally that her brother killed Euphie, because Nunnally will want to know why and even Suzaku doesn't know why.

Yes, Lelouch has been doing the exact same thing to Nunnally in season one but he honestly believed it was for her good and I'm sure Suzaku believes it's for her own good too which is why it's so frustrating watching Nunnally get fucked over by someone she cares for and trusts so strongly, again. I know Suzaku's just trying to protect her but I think Nunnally has the right to know. It would be one thing if she were just a princess holed up in her palace but right now she is the goddamn Governor-General and if she's going to govern properly she should have vital information and not giving her all the information she needs is going to hobble her ability to rule. I'm pissed at Suzaku because he's being NO BETTER than Lelouch.

I don't feel too sorry for the predicament Lelouch is in either because he did dig himself into this situation. Nunnally asking questions and disagreeing with him is something that always had a potential of happening. I think Lelouch can be best described as childishly optimistic. He's smart but he really doesn't think everything through and he lets his emotions get the better of him. When he's really angry his conscience gets overridden but it always comes back to haunt him when he's calmed down.

He killed Clovis, brother or no, because he ordered the slaughter of innocent civilians to cover up his own screw up and save his own neck and I think that was something he did deserve to die for but even afterwards the next day Lelouch felt sick about what he had down. Killing Euphie was taking responsibility for what he had done to her. It was an accident but I think Lelouch felt that he had to be the one to put her out of the misery he had subjected her to. I think this was what he meant when he said to Suzaku in episode 25, "I had to kill her." I think in Lelouch's mind it would've been much worse if Euphie were gunned down by terrorists thinking she had betrayed them. At least if Lelouch fired the shot it wasn't an execution but a mercy killing.

I think both Suzaku and Lelouch have their right points and their wrong points. I like them both as characters, but Suzaku had to grow on me awhile before I could like him. I just don't think Suzaku is as righteous as he thinks he is. I think the difference between Lelouch and Suzaku is Lelouch acknowledges the things he is doing is wrong but goes ahead and does them anyway but Suzaku honestly believes what he's doing is right because he's following a very complicated self-imposed moral code even though he is as bad as Lelouch in some ways.

[sevthebat.livejournal.com]

I think the reason most people tend to sympathize with Lelouch over Suzaku is because we as an audience still feel a tiny sting of betrayal over the revelations made in season one, where we realize that Suzaku is just as much of a hypocrite as Lelouch in some ways. Lelouch is established from the onset as an antihero, and so with him, we expect and even relish the pride that comes before the fall. With Suzaku, we were hoping for righteousness and got self-denied hypocrisy.

Another reason is that Lelouch doesn't pretend to himself that his morals are sound in the same way that Suzaku does. Suzaku wants and needs to think of himself as "one of the good guys". That in itself ought to be a noble pursuit, but it is turned on its head when we realize that he's been continually lying to himself in attempts to convince himself that he's right.
Lelouch, on the other hand, doesn't need to convince himself of anything. His methods are underhanded, true, but he doesn't see that as anything to be ashamed of.

Not that I'd rather meet Lelouch down a dark alley than Suzaku, but we're talking about their strengths and weaknesses as characters here, not as human beings.

[sakurina.livejournal.com]

At least you know you could outrun Lelouch from the alley easily.

I like your points on Suzaku. Although I'm rather happy he's no longer a purely righteous character, and that he's gotten a bit more complicated than that. Messed-up!Suzaku is a lot more fun.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

Whoa, calm down there. It's perfectly okay to dislike characters for whatever reason. However, if you're going to attempt any level of character analysis, you should try to distance your own feelings and values a bit more. You should take on the situation from within each character's own value framework and subjective experiences.

I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is.
No, you think he's wrong. There's a difference. Lelouch is quite justified if you approach things from his own standpoint.

Both Lelouch and Suzaku are meant to be morally gray characters. If you trace their reasonings from the beginning and apply their own subjective experiences, everything that they do makes sense. Everything that they do is justified, in a way. However, if you as a viewer step back, you realize that something is just not quite right. At some point in time, they both become some sort of objectively unjust. AND THAT'S WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

You're supposed to feel sympathy for these characters and still feel that they brought it upon themselves. They're tragic, they're human, they're broken, they're petty, and they don't choose the most optimal (speaking as detached viewers) paths for their goals, but that makes them all the more real.

Sure, Suzaku generally gets shat on, while Lelouch generally gets a free pass, but shitting on Lelouch in turn isn't gonna help the situation. This LJ comm is actually one of the most even-handed places on the internet for Geass discussion, so bringing up Lelouch's hypocrisies would be well-accepted. There's no need to take extreme opinions.

[ikui.livejournal.com]

Well to start off, being new to the fandom (New to the fandom not the anime), I was honestly shocked as some of the reactions of others as well. Many dismissed Suzaku on the premises that Lelouche was more morally correct or whatever one would like to call it. It was a battle of the characters, not an individual assessment

Anyway, as a referral to your post, I do agree with the sentiment that Nunally is not brainwashed. As shown in the episode herself, she strongly believes in creating a protectorate for Japan (whether one believes it is right or not). The way she reached out to Zero and spoke her mind shows that belief. By doing this, I really think the creators have shown the fact that Nunally has thought this whole issue over before carelessly taking the position. I mean Nunally even has thought over the fact that her image would be used as propaganda for sympathy.

Of course she may have been influenced by Suzaku or the death of Euphie to take the position as governor but it is only human for Nunally to take in these considerations. I highly doubt that these would dictate her whole reason on taking up the position. As a simple example if a teacher asked a student to be a captain of a debate team, it does not mean they were brainwashed by the teacher into that position, it means that the position is open to them and ultimately the person asked decides whether to accept or not. Besides, in my mind I seriously cannot see Suzaku doing something like sitting Nunally down and trying to force her to be the governess.

On the matter of Lelouche, I completely agree with some of the posts above me stating that since we get a first hand view on his opinions, our natual bias as viewers is to follow his reasoning. Like in the case of everyone accusing Suzaku of playing dirty by "using" Nunally. I mean where did the first opinion stating that come from? Directly from Lelouche in the episode preview. It was the first comment that everyone heard on the issue of Nunally so therefore it was impressionable.

As for Lelouche's intentions, yes they are selfish but I don't think that necessarily makes them inherently wrong or anything. He is fighting for what is important to him, even if in my opinion he is going the wrong way about doing it. Its very easy to write Lelouche off as hurting the greater good but honestly, when he is faced with fighting for his sister or a faceless population he does not know, it is easy to see why he is fighting for Nunally (Whether she wants it or not). I mean, anyone faced with a decision between their beloved one or a couple of strangers would pick the one they loved.

And I really do think you are getting ahead of yourself when you say that Lelouche is going to fuck over Nunally. I do believe that we are seeing a degradation of Lelouche's humanity and that he is caring less for strangers, but I wouldn't go quite that far to make such a massive conclusion yet. I mean Nunally is literally Lelouche's heart and to destroy her at this point would be destroying himself so the idea that he would harm Nunally in any way is kind of beyond me.

Quick note on the crimes thing, just because one has done less than the other doesn't make them any better or worse of a person necessarily so I am still not at the point where I am going to say Suzaku is better than Lelouch in terms of what they are doing.

And lastly, why is Lelouche biased towards? Obviously because he is the protaganist of the series, relating to the whole thing that the viewers get to see his opinion before anyone else (most of the time). Its a lot easier for viewers to go with what he says, I mean the bias is that a protaganist must always be right, otherwise he wouldn't be the protaganist. Plus Lelouche is supposed to be the kind of charming character with the big voice that convinces everyone, and he is portrayed like that very well in the series! Sometimes I find myself agreeing with Lelouche before even thinking about what he is truly saying.

lol long post is long but I do agree and disagree with some of the points that you make. But really? I do wish people would cut Suzaku some slack if their only reasoning is, "He is worse than Lelouche and Lelouche is better! Nananananaaaah." >_>;

[x-drear-x.livejournal.com]

And lastly, why is Lelouche biased towards? Obviously because he is the protaganist of the series, relating to the whole thing that the viewers get to see his opinion before anyone else (most of the time). Its a lot easier for viewers to go with what he says, I mean the bias is that a protaganist must always be right, otherwise he wouldn't be the protaganist. Plus Lelouche is supposed to be the kind of charming character with the big voice that convinces everyone, and he is portrayed like that very well in the series! Sometimes I find myself agreeing with Lelouche before even thinking about what he is truly saying.

I think you just hit the nail on the head there. Nice post.

[arhel.livejournal.com]

Ah, good old Lelouch/Suzaku fanwars.

I'm not sure where the brainwashing comments are coming from. From what the Emperor says, Nunnally does not know about the Geass, or that Zero is Lelouch. Being frightened of a terrorist who, as far as you know, indiscriminately killed your half-siblings and could very well be out to kill you as well isn't that unreasonable of a reaction now, is it? Nowhere does Nunnally refuse Lelouch. She even prays to him for strength when facing down Zero. By keeping her in the dark through out Season 1, Lelouch set himself up for this scenario.

People forgive Lelouch a lot more than Suzaku because Lelouch is the protagonist. And because he's the ideal power trip wish fulfilment fantasy for geeks. I mean, don't you wish you were an exiled prince with a power that required no physical prowess, could command people you didn't like to die, have an angsty childhood so people would feel sorry for you, attractive girls falling all over you, ruthless yet vulnerable for more angst value, etc? How would Lelouch score on the Mary Sue litmus test, I wonder?

The difference is that Lelouch does get his comeuppance at times (though how it ultimately pans out is still up in the air). If he did not suffer setbacks or get karmic retribution for his actions, he would be just an annoying "perfect" character. So crap happens, and fans being fans have to find someone to blame.

I do not believe that Lelouch would screw over Nunnally. The one thing that did impress me in Ep 6 was how he backed off once he realized that she wanted something different from what he wanted. He's always been arrogant enough to assume that what he was doing was best for her sake, but is still able to be brought back down to reality when she denies it. That suggests that he might be able to lean away from the vengeance-driven trajectory, or at least is willing to broaden his views a little. We'll have to see next episode just what his soul searching turns up.

It is not that I am particularly fond of, or hate, either Suzaku or Lelouch. But objectively speaking Lelouch has chalked up way more bad karma than Suzaku, and the blind insistance from his fans that he has not (by bashing not only Suzaku but pretty much any character who does not agree with Lelouch) is getting old.

[powercorrupts.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what I find more irritating - the people who justify away everything Lelouch does or the people who justify away everything Suzaku does.

Lelouch is not a sparkly happy normal protagonist. He is out for revenge, he is willing to use dirty tactics, and he feels that the ends justify the means. He is, however, not some sort of demented sociopath on a rampage of death with no care about anything, either. Every time I see either characterization, I find myself clicking the back button before I have to read too much of it, because my blood pressure isn't the best to begin with.

I'll agree with you that somehow quite a few people in this fandom are ridiculously quick to write off everything he does as perfectly acceptable. I can't count how many times I've gotten in an argument with someone (sometimes on this community) who was trying to justify something Lelouch did with strange reasons, or argue that he would never ever do something that he actually ends up doing. But on the other hand, I also think he gets a lot of flack on other sites (/a/ comes immediately to mind), and there are still plenty of people here who seem to want paint him as some sort of evil character, when in my opinion that's exactly what the show is trying to avoid. If Geass wanted to give us completely black and white, stereotypical concepts of good and evil, they wouldn't have given us a typical mecha show hero as an antagonist, and a somewhat villainous figure as the protagonist.

And neither is Suzaku perfectly correct, or perfectly inhuman. Somehow it seems that the overwhelming majority of this fandom is somehow unable to comprehend outside of typical "villain/hero" lines, which I find absolutely depressing in a show that is obviously attempting to subvert that trope as hard as it can.

I think you come off a little harsh about the matter, of course. Bashing Lelouch left and right isn't made right just because people do so about Suzaku. I don't see how it somehow fixes anything - if you want to rant about people being unfair in how they feel about a fictional character, trying to rile people up by doing the same isn't exactly the most mature way to go about it.

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

I can't agree with your post any harder, especially this bit:

Somehow it seems that the overwhelming majority of this fandom is somehow unable to comprehend outside of typical "villain/hero" lines, which I find absolutely depressing in a show that is obviously attempting to subvert that trope as hard as it can.

This is why /a/ and AS make me a sad panda. That and people are constantly unable to separate their own values from that of the characters'. You mean that an omniscient, emotionally-detached viewer would perceive a situation differently than a confused, traumatized teenager? SAY IT AIN'T SO! -_-

[thrumugnyr.livejournal.com]

Eh? I don't think Nunnally is brainwashed at all. o.O She's just left in the dark and now rhyming her own stuff together.
(And on the other hand: I always knew that Nunnally would never be happy about her brother killing people for "her" sake.)

Suzaku...well I just never liked him that much in season 2. But only because he seems a bit "stupid" to me. I think that that "and I will govern Are 11 as Knight of One" idea is a bit to less thought ahead. The Elevens would have the same problems again as soon as Suzaku is gone then.
With Lelouchs plan, Japan would be liberated once and for all. (And other countries as well if he really manages to "crush" Britannia)

Other than that I don't really think that Lelouch or Suzaku is any better. I just tend to like Lelouch more. Even though Suzaku has the Arthur bonus.

[amamiku.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the whole, but there's a pretty simple answer for why Lelouch is generally liked so much more than Suzaku: he's simply more entertaining. ^_~

Oh, I'm sure Lelouch is the worse person (both are misguided, and I think the anime has done a nice job of mirroring their respective downfalls in judgment), and Suzaku at least strives to be kinder and more merciful.

But, if Suzaku were the main character I'd have died of boredom a season ago. In fact, Suzaku is the type of hero I've met and forgotten already in ten zillion other mech shows.

Lelouch brings the lulz to the yard. I've gotta love the guy, he's so damn fun to watch. I wouldn't maybe want to sit down to tea with him or live on the same continent, but when he's in my laptop screen he's a very likable fellow. ^__^

[amamiku.livejournal.com]

Ah, but one more thing - I don't believe that Lelouch will fuck over Nunally, and I think this is absolutely key. In fact, this very episode, he was frozen by the sudden realization that he might be doing to Nunally what he did to Euphie. I think that's a turning point of sorts for Lelouch, and it remains to be seen whether she will be his downfall or his redemption.

(...or both. It's my personal pet theory that at the very end of the series Lelouch will ultimately die for Nunally, and that in doing so he'll achieve some level of redemption.)

[emifujiwara.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't think Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku or anyone. Suzaku don't use any power like Lelouch for his goal or for kill peoples or for obligated them to do something he wants, but he's not better than him. I mean, now, in the R2, Suzaku becomes a little like Lelouch. Now, what he wants is to avenge Euphemia, like Lelouch wants to avenge his sister. I love them both, but I don't think Lelouch is bad and Suzaku good. For me, they're not. Lelouch's methods are too radical but Suzaku's methods aren't enough. They have their qualities and their defaults so that's why they're not perfect. However, I don't think the ends justify the means, but I don't think change a country from the inside without any violence is possible. Humans use violence every day, it's the human nature and we never will can erase it. Also, I understand Suzaku who "use" Nunally for see if Lelouch becomes Zero like before. Zero has killed Euphie and destroy his plans for peace, so he has the right to do it.

I think Nunally becomes like Euphemia, but with littles differences. Now she take initiatives and her character is more developed than before so I'm happy. Now, Nunally know Lelouch is Zero. I don't know how she'll react to this, because she thinks Zero is wrong but Lelouch is her brother, and she likes him a lot. But he has killed a lot of peoples, Clovis and Euphemia ( although she don't know that was an accident ) but... I don't think she can hates him. She can hates Zero, like Suzaku, but not hate the person who is her brother, a good person who cares about her and his friends. If one day she knows Lelouch is Zero just for her, for make a beautiful country without any discrimanation and war where she can opens her eyes again...( even if his methods are too radical ) I guess she will be drepessed because she'll think it's his entire fault, but is not. Moroever, he said he can't lie to Nunnaly when he has her on telephone, but it's wrong. He has lie to her a lot, he never said something about Zero.

Really, Lelouch is a good person. He loves his friends, take care about them and enjoy their company, like any adolescent. But when he's Zero, he's totally different. I don't know if Zero is the real Lelouch, or an another part of his personality... His actions are not all good but that starts from an good intention. But he had going to far and now he can't return any more behind. Personally, I love Lelouch but I can't forgive his crims or all the bad thing he has doing in the past. And it's the same for Suzaku, I can't forgive him for has give his friend to the Emperor... They're not good or bad : they're good AND bad. And that's why I love this anime, because they have the same goal but don't have the same methods and hate themselves.

I specify that I am not for Britannia or The Order of Black Knights in particular, but for both.

( and sorry if I made mistakes. )

[zerorevenge.livejournal.com]

Imagine how disgusted Nunally will be when Lelouch/Zero tells her that he's done "all of this" for her. Murdering her 2 siblings, etc.

And 1,000 Kudos points for a well thought up argument. (Also extra 1,000 points for indirectly supporting Suzaku)

[aether-lux.livejournal.com]

looks like everyone here has made their point in hordes of paragraphs. I wouldn't like to get on the bandwagon, seeing as some of my points are stressed by one or the other.

BUT~

to put it in dashes (hopefully answering sumeragiskank):

- Nunally supports Euphie's idealistic claims for Japan

- Suzaku has simply won over Nunally's trust because both of them supports Euphie's idea. (Remember they want an independent Japan? Err correct me if I'm wrong.)

- Both Suzaku and Lelouch are wrong in many ways and right at the same time (depends with how you think about it, really.)

- To enunciate, Suzaku is right to have "sold" Lelouch because of the crimes he has committed under the name of Zero.
- But he's also wrong because it wasn't shown to us if Suzaku dared to listen to Lelouch's real side of the story (Remember he was utterly broken emotionally by Euphie's death? And remember that Lelouch didn't mean to kill Euphie and instead, go with her idea?).

- Lelouch is right (speaking for nationalism and love for family) to have formed the Black Knights because, if you were under his shoes, and given that you have the 'geass', wouldn't you feel the pressure of your own country in danger or the fact that someone so close to you died(Marianne Britannia)or was abducted(Nunally) on the time when you were powerless/ have control over everything?

- But he is wrong at the same time, because he is selfish to think that nearly everything he concocted were stepping stones to simply achieve his way of a "normal life" with Nunally alone. (recall how he ponders to use Rolo and manipulate him for Lelouch's own gains)

- Lelouch accidentally triggered (or rather, because of his constant use, isn't strong enough to be suppresed) the geass before Euphie. simply saying: it's not his entire fault.

- Nunally will be more than horrified to find his brother in such a devastating position.

- Yes, Lelouch is the one suffering every blow.

- D8 Suzaku's suddenly out-of-character decisions are mind blowing for all of us. Since during the first season, we got used to the heroic and nationalistic Suzaku, and the cunning and sinful Lelouch. Season 2 is the turning point for their attitudes. Suzaku displayed his emotions on screen as if he had such cruel intentions. And Lelouch displayed such a torn and violated emotion since his past was vandalized and his only loved family member, abducted.

- Hints of the next episode is that he'll probably stay silent and let Nunally do her job.. because he might've been so emotionally torn by the tragic events...

WTF IT'S SO LONG!!?! DDDD:

[lb-x.livejournal.com]

I don't think Suzaku needs to brainwash Nunnally - we know they're fairly close, and they appear to have similar ideals. Plus, Suzaku is a childhood friend who is able to protect and help Nunnally in her new position. She has no reason to doubt his intentions at this point, because she doesn't know about the broken friendship between Suzaku/Lelouch.

People have said a lot of good things above, so in short: I agree, I'm tired of people endlessly bashing Suzaku for ridiculous reasons and treating Lelouch as God. We don't know Suzaku's side of things, Lelouch commits some pretty horrible crimes as well, and historically, both of their paths have been tried in gaining freedom so neither is less legit in its position. It's natural to side with Lelouch given the show is in his perspective, but I'm getting tired of the repeated "Suzaku should die! / don't even try to justify his actions" posts after each episode in some non-LJ forums.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know this isn't very intelligent, but I loved the Lloyd moments. I especially liked his scream- Sounded like some kind of animal. I totally cracked up. I loved this episode for very dumb reasons- Lloyd and Guilford in the same episode always makes me very happy. <3

Yeah... I wondered that too. People point out all of Suzaku's wrongdoings, but in the end, I think it's safe to say that Lelouch has totally killed more characters, insignificant and significant alike. All in all, it's Lelouch who is the worse person. >.>