Argghh Refrain

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Refrain Analogies

(ugh sorry I know there are already 2 or 3 other discussion postson Turn 15, buuut

I was just thinking back on Turn 15, and I found it interesting that Suzaku compared giving Refrain to Kallen, to Zero.

From gg's subs:

You will tell me everything. With this Refrain...

There's no need to be afraid.

Your own will shall soon be gone, and you will answer my questions.

You will obey my orders.

*Kallen whining/crying*

I-I... won't become like him!

Before I was talking with a friend and we were like "If Suzaku did that, fandom would totally hate him forever." Even the die-hard Suzaku fans couldn't justify injecting drugs into a prisoner (especially Kallen! ;_;) It's just morally wrong and is so going against Suzaku's ends by the means thing.

But now that I think about what Suzaku said, "I-I... won't become like him!" isn't giving Kallen Refrain the same thing as Lelouch geassing someone? It takes away free will, alters consciousness and commands obedience.

I dunno, I just thought about it a bit more, and if I was going to hate Suzaku forever for forcefully giving Kallen drugs, I should hate Lelouch every time he uses Geass because it ends with the same result- one's just a physical injection and the other is metaphysical mindfuck.

And just a random completely overdue Kallen related question:

What actually did happen to her mother?
In Stage 9, SHS-Ureshii said "Your sentence is out, it's 20 years" and gg's was something like "The verdict is out it's 20 years."
And I was talking with a friend again and she was like "Kallen's mum went to jail for doing drugs" and I'm like wtf do they really do that (it's obviously not the same as our world, but still, I've never heard of somebody going to jail for doing drugs.)
I was under the impression that Kallen's mum would be a drooling vegetable-like-state in hospital for 20 years, but the fansubs definitely tell otherwise. So clarification anyone? xD

Oh, and some random lolness I stole from Kit-chan

"Nii-san...where are you...you're late for our nightly make-out session...:("

Comments

[saverellawish.livejournal.com]

But now that I think about what Suzaku said, "I-I... won't become like him!" isn't giving Kallen Refrain the same thing as Lelouch geassing someone? It takes away free will, alters consciousness and commands obedience.

I dunno, I just thought about it a bit more, and if I was going to hate Suzaku forever for forcefully giving Kallen drugs, I should hate Lelouch every time he uses Geass because it ends with the same result- one's just a physical injection and the other is metaphysical mindfuck.

The reason so many people were against what Suzaku was doing is because he was resorting to using drugs to get information, let alone on a female. Most of us are taught that drugs are bad, bad, bad early on in life. Hell, in elementary school I went through the DARE program that taught us how bad drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol is. Its pounded into our brains, which is ironic considering that the government thinks its ok to do on terrorists, but oh our own citizens can't be doing it.

The reason most people aren't against what Lelouch does is because we're not taught any morals on mind raping people. Of course most would consider is morally wrong, but for those of us who haven't questioned lelouch's actions, because hes not really hurting, its ok, right? The problem with a storyline like Geass's is that what main characters like Lelouch, doing something to avenge a lost family member and make a happier place for their younger sibling, don't realize is that if things had just stayed the way they were, if they didn't take action and accepted that their lives were good as things are, they would have lived a peaceful life and that their sibling would be just happy for it. But we wouldn't have much of a story then would we?

I'm not justifying Lelouch's actions at all because he hasn't and won't get off scot free. Hes massacred more than a few people, he killed Clovis, he killed Euphemia, he lost Shirley, Nunnally is no longer beside him, Kallen is captured, and he almost lost C.C. and apparently he lost whatever wisdom she still had to pass onto him considering her current state. And there will be much more hes going to lose as the series goes on. Thats what I take solace in for him being my favorite character. I know the end won't be good for him, and considering his actions its quite well deserved. But I can't help liking him, thats all there is to it.

The only reason I was ticked off with Suzaku is because I don't approve of his actions lately. Though Lelouch's actions are far more agreeable for my tastes, I've never really hated Suzaku for anything hes done. I can see both of their sides, and because its just a story I try not to get emotionally involved, but you just can't help things like that. The lines between good and bad are still pretty blurred in Geass so of course reactions to the characters are different from week to week. But I'll never approve of using drugs on someone, terrorist or not.

I'll stop there cause this will just get longer ._.;;

Also, don't people always go to jail for doing drugs? I mean if the police find it on them they arrest both the buyers and the sellers. I thought it was always that way. My little brother watches COPS so I guess it never really occured to me it would be any different.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

That's really exactly my point we're taught that drugs are bad not mind-raping is bad. But the Geass use and Drug use are quite similar really, so both should be just as bad. I'd never approve of using drugs on anyone either, and a lot of people would agree. But then shouldn't the same apply to using Geass?

(but agreed I still love Lelouch lol o.O)

I have limited knowledge on the whole thing, but isn't a jail sentence and getting arrested different?

lol I don't watch cops, but whenever I watch some crime show and drugs and drug users are involved, they just go to rehab and not jail.

And there are always a few of those reports that are like "*insert celebrity star/sports person etc.* was found with Cocaine" and I never hear about them going to jail O_o

[arasay-x3.livejournal.com]

Yeah I agree but if Lelouch doesn't have the Geass, there won't be any Code Geass!

[fluffyfledgling.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, the problem lies in the storytelling.

Lelouch is the protagonist, so we see his true character, his motivations, his pain, his love for Nunnally and his friends, etc. Massacres and other killings are presented in a way favourable to his image-- reflective of his image of himself. In other words, Lelouch's purpose and beliefs are transferred to the audience and we overlook any selfishness or cruelty in his actions. Thus, most of the emotional sympathy in the show lies in Lelouch's favour.

Suzaku, on the other hand, as the antagonist, is never presented this way. Not to mention Suzaku himself is also a very direct character. Imho, he isn't any less sensitive than Lelouch, but he approaches his emotions in a different way, and it results in different methods of manipulation and attack.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of that, but
Massacres and other killings are presented in a way favourable to his image
Not really "favourable," they're still not really justified (but most fans still like him anyway). But giving his thoughts does give us further understanding of why.

[fluffyfledgling.livejournal.com]

I mean favourable to his image in the sense that he attempts to justify them. It's for the greater good, it's for the greater good-- which, according to Lelouch, is destroying Britannia? (Think Lelouch's way of playing chess; it seems to me he believes the end justifies the means.)

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Ah yes ic xD

Suzaku would receive a lot less hate if he had some internal monologue that attempted to justify all his "evil" actions, which amount to much less than Lelouch's I think.