Argghh Refrain

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Refrain Analogies

(ugh sorry I know there are already 2 or 3 other discussion postson Turn 15, buuut

I was just thinking back on Turn 15, and I found it interesting that Suzaku compared giving Refrain to Kallen, to Zero.

From gg's subs:

You will tell me everything. With this Refrain...

There's no need to be afraid.

Your own will shall soon be gone, and you will answer my questions.

You will obey my orders.

*Kallen whining/crying*

I-I... won't become like him!

Before I was talking with a friend and we were like "If Suzaku did that, fandom would totally hate him forever." Even the die-hard Suzaku fans couldn't justify injecting drugs into a prisoner (especially Kallen! ;_;) It's just morally wrong and is so going against Suzaku's ends by the means thing.

But now that I think about what Suzaku said, "I-I... won't become like him!" isn't giving Kallen Refrain the same thing as Lelouch geassing someone? It takes away free will, alters consciousness and commands obedience.

I dunno, I just thought about it a bit more, and if I was going to hate Suzaku forever for forcefully giving Kallen drugs, I should hate Lelouch every time he uses Geass because it ends with the same result- one's just a physical injection and the other is metaphysical mindfuck.

And just a random completely overdue Kallen related question:

What actually did happen to her mother?
In Stage 9, SHS-Ureshii said "Your sentence is out, it's 20 years" and gg's was something like "The verdict is out it's 20 years."
And I was talking with a friend again and she was like "Kallen's mum went to jail for doing drugs" and I'm like wtf do they really do that (it's obviously not the same as our world, but still, I've never heard of somebody going to jail for doing drugs.)
I was under the impression that Kallen's mum would be a drooling vegetable-like-state in hospital for 20 years, but the fansubs definitely tell otherwise. So clarification anyone? xD

Oh, and some random lolness I stole from Kit-chan

"Nii-san...where are you...you're late for our nightly make-out session...:("

Comments

[arasay-x3.livejournal.com]

Yeah Kallen's mum did drugs. That's why Kallen was so into stopping Lelouch take the drug. Well that's what I read from some other discussion sights!

Ah Rolo looks so cool in that pic! :D LOL at the caption below ;D

[sukiyakiya.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I just thought about it a bit more, and if I was going to hate Suzaku forever for forcefully giving Kallen drugs, I should hate Lelouch every time he uses Geass because it ends with the same result- one's just a physical injection and the other is metaphysical mindfuck
heh, its because mostly ppl doing about "they favorite person", though in classic way, in Real Life even Intellegent 'secretly' does have permission to drug terrorist to got information, cruel i know, but that was one of the way.

Maybe is an ugly random ppl or maybe unimportant terrorist cameo, no one will protest that Suzaku will drug him/her.

I have heard some word that "hero and criminals are have a thin line difference" *grins*

[kiriska.livejournal.com]

Other than the miscenally people he's told to die, Lelouch hasn't really used his geass to intentionally hurt someone, mostly just to get information and to make them useful to him. As most people don't know of his power, he also isn't traumatizing them because they don't know what's going on. And as far as I can think of right now, none of his actual followers have been geass'd into obeying him for his rebellion. Especially in the case of Kallen, where she suspected that he had toyed with him, I think it's significant that Lelouch hadn't, so I don't really think it's fair for Suzaku to draw the parallel. Maybe it's also not fair that people don't know about the Lelouch's geass and thus can't be "OH SHIT NO--" when he uses it on them, but I also wonder. If Suzaku had contracted with C.C. instead of Lelouch, what would have happened?

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Ugh, we're just as bad as terrorist organisations then? -_-

But that's a good point, I wonder if it was some random terrorist (or even some one like Tamaki) would the reaction be very different? I think a lot of people would still be like "Suzaku, why the hell are you drugging some random prisoner!?" but not as big an uproar.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Although it's not revealed I think Kallen's mum only took Refrain once? *shrugs* But she did get pretty sick after it, so it could've been a build up from constantly using drugs or it could be a one-off thing.

lol Rolo <3 xD

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Even though the process of using Refrain would hurt her, Suzaku's intention wasn't to hurt Kallen- just to get information out of her too.

But I agree with the "OH SHIT NO--" bit lol xD That it changes things since Kallen would be conscious of being drugged (for some of it) vs somebody going "wtf is that in his eye" when Lelouch uses his Geass.

[spleener.livejournal.com]

She was a vegetable temporarily due to taking the drug, I don't think it was remotely permanent. But yes, taking illegal drugs tends to get you thrown into jail for a while, this isn't just a Britannian thing, most countries do this, though where they draw the line varies (specifically regarding marijuana) most of them agree that things like heroin and crack should be illegal to sell and use.

[spleener.livejournal.com]

She was taking it regularly, her accidents around the house in episode 9 (the vase, etc.) were due to frequent use of the drug fucking her brain over, and we see her distressing over being out of refrain in one scene there too.

More than likely she just happened to be pushed over to the state of vegetable with the dose she took in the warehouse that night, I guess?

[rainbow-cnxn.livejournal.com]

Well, Suzaku giving Kallen Refrain wasn't so that he'd intentionally hurt her, either. It was to get information about Zero and to make Kallen useful to him.

I think you're giving Lelouch a bit of a free pass there. Your claim that geassing doesn't traumatize people because "they don't know what's going on" is a bit disingenuous. It strikes a bit of "everything is justified if no one knows about it". Mainly, we have people who have found out about his geassing them and have had incredibly negative emotional reactions. The most blatant example of this is Shirley (twice). The first time, she was looking into his eyes and screaming at him, literally begging him not to geass her. And once she finds out again, she is traumatized by it. Then, there's Euphie, who was writhing in horror at the order placed upon her. Sure, she doesn't remember the order after a few seconds, but those few seconds of emotion are still real.

And if Suzaku had contracted with C.C., he'd probably be crazier than ever right now. I'd imagine he'd devolve to what Mao became eventually.

[zerorevenge.livejournal.com]

What actually did happen to her mother?
In Stage 9, SHS-Ureshii said "Your sentence is out, it's 20 years" and gg's was something like "The verdict is out it's 20 years."
And I was talking with a friend again and she was like "Kallen's mum went to jail for doing drugs" and I'm like wtf do they really do that (it's obviously not the same as our world, but still, I've never heard of somebody going to jail for doing drugs.)
I was under the impression that Kallen's mum would be a drooling vegetable-like-state in hospital for 20 years, but the fansubs definitely tell otherwise. So clarification anyone? xD

People goto jail all the time for Drugs, as I understood, she's going to jail for being included in the Refrain Drug Ring.

[saverellawish.livejournal.com]

But now that I think about what Suzaku said, "I-I... won't become like him!" isn't giving Kallen Refrain the same thing as Lelouch geassing someone? It takes away free will, alters consciousness and commands obedience.

I dunno, I just thought about it a bit more, and if I was going to hate Suzaku forever for forcefully giving Kallen drugs, I should hate Lelouch every time he uses Geass because it ends with the same result- one's just a physical injection and the other is metaphysical mindfuck.

The reason so many people were against what Suzaku was doing is because he was resorting to using drugs to get information, let alone on a female. Most of us are taught that drugs are bad, bad, bad early on in life. Hell, in elementary school I went through the DARE program that taught us how bad drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol is. Its pounded into our brains, which is ironic considering that the government thinks its ok to do on terrorists, but oh our own citizens can't be doing it.

The reason most people aren't against what Lelouch does is because we're not taught any morals on mind raping people. Of course most would consider is morally wrong, but for those of us who haven't questioned lelouch's actions, because hes not really hurting, its ok, right? The problem with a storyline like Geass's is that what main characters like Lelouch, doing something to avenge a lost family member and make a happier place for their younger sibling, don't realize is that if things had just stayed the way they were, if they didn't take action and accepted that their lives were good as things are, they would have lived a peaceful life and that their sibling would be just happy for it. But we wouldn't have much of a story then would we?

I'm not justifying Lelouch's actions at all because he hasn't and won't get off scot free. Hes massacred more than a few people, he killed Clovis, he killed Euphemia, he lost Shirley, Nunnally is no longer beside him, Kallen is captured, and he almost lost C.C. and apparently he lost whatever wisdom she still had to pass onto him considering her current state. And there will be much more hes going to lose as the series goes on. Thats what I take solace in for him being my favorite character. I know the end won't be good for him, and considering his actions its quite well deserved. But I can't help liking him, thats all there is to it.

The only reason I was ticked off with Suzaku is because I don't approve of his actions lately. Though Lelouch's actions are far more agreeable for my tastes, I've never really hated Suzaku for anything hes done. I can see both of their sides, and because its just a story I try not to get emotionally involved, but you just can't help things like that. The lines between good and bad are still pretty blurred in Geass so of course reactions to the characters are different from week to week. But I'll never approve of using drugs on someone, terrorist or not.

I'll stop there cause this will just get longer ._.;;

Also, don't people always go to jail for doing drugs? I mean if the police find it on them they arrest both the buyers and the sellers. I thought it was always that way. My little brother watches COPS so I guess it never really occured to me it would be any different.

[sukiyakiya.livejournal.com]

Ugh, we're just as bad as terrorist organisations then?
depends on what you thinking, maybe when we thinking that we are right, maybe other will fell the wrong, after all ever person have their on "justice". The only thing different that A is called 'hero' and the B is called 'criminal' though what they doing almost same, but ppl always like 'hero' ways, right?

or even some one like Tamaki
For the worst, ppl will laugh when Suzaku got him drug^^;

[sukiyakiya.livejournal.com]

no offense too, but here and there is a different matter, i hope we didn't bring a hard topic into anime thread topic^^; (not in US anyway)

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I was under the impression that people don't go to jail for taking drugs but for sellling/trafficking etc.

I have limited knowledge besides television on this, but whenever somebody takes drugs they just go to rehab

How come all those druggie celebrities aren't in jail? O_o

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

That's really exactly my point we're taught that drugs are bad not mind-raping is bad. But the Geass use and Drug use are quite similar really, so both should be just as bad. I'd never approve of using drugs on anyone either, and a lot of people would agree. But then shouldn't the same apply to using Geass?

(but agreed I still love Lelouch lol o.O)

I have limited knowledge on the whole thing, but isn't a jail sentence and getting arrested different?

lol I don't watch cops, but whenever I watch some crime show and drugs and drug users are involved, they just go to rehab and not jail.

And there are always a few of those reports that are like "*insert celebrity star/sports person etc.* was found with Cocaine" and I never hear about them going to jail O_o

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

I'm Australian just for the record lol (which isn't much better but anyway)

Obviously there are a lot of atrocities going on, some behind our backs some straight in front of us. I was just finding it ironic that the Western world often depicts terrorists and terrorism as this ruthless monstrous thing, but in reality we commit a lot of the same things they do.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Yeah I guess. It's just that, the Western world media would probably take something like "Terrorists drug their prisoners!" to create this public outrage when the Western world does it too.

lol, a lot of people hate Tamaki too. I bet a lot of people would be like "GO SUZAKU!" lol xD

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Arrest or jail time? I think jail time has to be handed down by a court. Unless it's drug trafficking, I also don't think the time would be anywhere near 20 years (unless, being part of the drug ring she was trafficking drugs, but that seems kinda unlikely).

I dunno, but if people did go to jail all the time for drugs, I don't see why Kallen would just hand in her mother (unless it was absolutely imperative that she went to hospital and there was no other way.)

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Aaah I remember seeing that, when she was all omfg with all that random writing on the wall. I was like "wtf is up with that"

Thanks for clearing that up xD

[sukiyakiya.livejournal.com]

Eastern and Western actually not different at all, the different only their way^^;

talking about tamaki, remember about A board that have a status of loyalty that someone posting? they said it was based on Zero prediction. Tamaki got only 40, but for loyalty, i guess the real one he is above, remember on eps 01 R2? when everyone seem not trusted Zero, but he is 100% not give up his hope to Zero, he is the real loyal XD

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Ahaha yeah, Zero doesn't give Tamaki enough credit xD

[sukiyakiya.livejournal.com]

yeah, i wonder when tamaki will "gave enough" about Zero, i hope he not >.

[arasay-x3.livejournal.com]

Yeah refrain.

Oh and I found out more stuff! ^^ Well Kallen's real mum and dad divorced and her dad married this other woman and Kallen's mum was hired as a maid in the house. At first Kallen, her dad, stepmother and brother treated Kallen's real mum badly so she started taking drugs and eventually... died? Kallen then realises how mean she was as a Britainnian or something so she and her brother joined a resistance and Ougi was her brother's friend so that explains how she hugged him when he got rescued.

^ Well something like that, I may be wrong at some parts XP

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Well she didn't die- she's seen in Stage 9 xD I think the part where her mum and dad divorced and remarried is probably true though

[arasay-x3.livejournal.com]

Oh then she didn't die. ^^' My bad. Yeah the divorced part is pretty true... I read it in more than 3 discussion posts and they all mentioned it and plus my sister also told me about it and she's usually write about stuff like that XD

[arasay-x3.livejournal.com]

Yeah I agree but if Lelouch doesn't have the Geass, there won't be any Code Geass!

[zerorevenge.livejournal.com]

Lovely Icon ^_^

And I'm pretty sure Kallen just wanted her Mother to get clean... however she was found there in the Drug Trafficking Warehouse, so because of her Eleven status, she was punished hardly than normal.

...And with Kallen's bitchy step-mother, no strings were probably pulled either.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Ah yes it makes sense that she gets harsher punishments.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

lol thanks xDDDD

[fluffyfledgling.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, the problem lies in the storytelling.

Lelouch is the protagonist, so we see his true character, his motivations, his pain, his love for Nunnally and his friends, etc. Massacres and other killings are presented in a way favourable to his image-- reflective of his image of himself. In other words, Lelouch's purpose and beliefs are transferred to the audience and we overlook any selfishness or cruelty in his actions. Thus, most of the emotional sympathy in the show lies in Lelouch's favour.

Suzaku, on the other hand, as the antagonist, is never presented this way. Not to mention Suzaku himself is also a very direct character. Imho, he isn't any less sensitive than Lelouch, but he approaches his emotions in a different way, and it results in different methods of manipulation and attack.

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of that, but
Massacres and other killings are presented in a way favourable to his image
Not really "favourable," they're still not really justified (but most fans still like him anyway). But giving his thoughts does give us further understanding of why.

[fluffyfledgling.livejournal.com]

I mean favourable to his image in the sense that he attempts to justify them. It's for the greater good, it's for the greater good-- which, according to Lelouch, is destroying Britannia? (Think Lelouch's way of playing chess; it seems to me he believes the end justifies the means.)

[tenshi789.livejournal.com]

Ah yes ic xD

Suzaku would receive a lot less hate if he had some internal monologue that attempted to justify all his "evil" actions, which amount to much less than Lelouch's I think.