A Question About Ore vs. Boku vs. Watashi

[lavaliere]

I think we've all had enough with posts relating to Episode 19, yes? Even if I still get teary-eyed just thinking about it So, let's have a bit of a discussion.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before. I haven't seen a post on it, so....

Even those of us who completely fail at moonspeak Japanese are able to pick up certain words and phrases at times. I do this, myself, from time to time. And so, going back to watch the first season again, I picked up on something I hadn't before. Zero refers to himself with the watashi form of me or I whereas Lelouch uses ore.

Now, I understand that the way a person refers to themselves depends greatly on their personality. Someone who is more polite tends to use boku or watashi while a guy who is more self-assured might use ore. Those that are very self-assured, or even egotistic might use ore-sama.

We know that Suzaku switches between ore and boku usually when he's affected by the Live Geass or certain aspects of his past. But why does Lelouch switch between ore as his usual self and watashi as Zero? Is it just to keep people wondering about the true identity of Zero or do you think there's another reason?

I mean, Suzaku seems to differentiate between Zero and Lelouch, choosing to see them as two seperate people at times. Rolo does it too, sometimes, but not nearly as often as Suzaku and eventually drops the concept all together after Lelouch sways him to his side. Does anyone else do this as well? Does Lelouch see himself and Zero as two different people or does he see them as one and the same? I'm thinking he believes he and Zero are one and the same, so why the use of watashi? Why not even just boku?

Comments

[lavaliere]

I think you're right on what Euphy and the JLF use. And I can understand the need to present Zero as a ambiguous persona, but why a polite one? He's very assertive when he speaks to the people, yet uses watashi. It seems almsot contradictory. or maybe I don't know enough Japanese to be able to tell

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

In terms of assertion, you can be very assertive using "watashi" while still being formal. (Euphie is incredibly assertive using "watakushi".) "Ore" is considered borderline rude in some situations, simply because of how informal it is. Selfless Suzaku uses "boku", while the more self-absorbed Suzaku uses "ore". For Japanese social norms, Boku!Suzaku looks a lot better and represents better values than Ore!Suzaku.

In English, we really don't have the sort of formal/informal self distinctions, but something comparable might be using contractions. In a formal speech (like a presidential address or something), you don't generally see a speaker use many contractions. However, in casual speech, they're everywhere. It's not necessarily wrong to use contractions in formal speaking, but it's generally not done. Or if it is, it's very sparing.

Considering Japan/Japanese's insanely strict social etiquette, it seems more likely that being so informal as to use "ore" in Zero's position would be out of the question. And, as Lelouch has said more than once, Zero is a symbol. Better to play to the loftier side of the image with more formal language. He also uses "shokun" instead of "minna" to address groups. It's like using "ladies and gentlemen" as opposed to "everybody" or "you guys".

[lavaliere]

Ah, I see~ Thank you, that's very helpful. :)

In my head, it kind of compares to the use of tu vs. vous in French (or the similar versions in other Romance Languages), though it doesn't translate quite the same. I wish English had the same type of oral social distinctions that other languages often do. It's just so much easier to determine a person's sense of self by how they speak, and while we have some distinction (in the form of different accents or like the example you gave with the use of contractions), it's just not the same.

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

In my head, it kind of compares to the use of tu vs. vous in French

*nodnodnod* That's a good example, too, I think.

while we have some distinction (in the form of different accents or like the example you gave with the use of contractions), it's just not the same.

Amen. And then you have the exceptions wherein it's actually more respectful to a person to refer to them by their first names and not "Mr./Ms./Mrs." or whatever... our lists of exceptions are sometimes as long as the examples that follow the rules. XD

Yeah, and honestly, I should qualify all my statements about English with "American English" because who knows if it's different in the UK and Australia or New Zealand? Dude, if someone ever says you can learn a language without learning the culture, they're lyyyyyyyyyying. I taught English in Japan for 18 months and trying to explain why we do certain things and when to use the exceptions made me feel so bad for my students. XD

[dist.livejournal.com]

apapazukamori explained this really well already, but just as an additional note, Jeremiah always used "watashi" even before he was a crazy super-polite cyborg, and he certainly wasn't an unassertive pushover. Speaking politely isn't only about appearing humble, but, however counterintuitive it may seem, about appearing proper and deserving of respect.