A Question About Ore vs. Boku vs. Watashi

[lavaliere]

I think we've all had enough with posts relating to Episode 19, yes? Even if I still get teary-eyed just thinking about it So, let's have a bit of a discussion.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before. I haven't seen a post on it, so....

Even those of us who completely fail at moonspeak Japanese are able to pick up certain words and phrases at times. I do this, myself, from time to time. And so, going back to watch the first season again, I picked up on something I hadn't before. Zero refers to himself with the watashi form of me or I whereas Lelouch uses ore.

Now, I understand that the way a person refers to themselves depends greatly on their personality. Someone who is more polite tends to use boku or watashi while a guy who is more self-assured might use ore. Those that are very self-assured, or even egotistic might use ore-sama.

We know that Suzaku switches between ore and boku usually when he's affected by the Live Geass or certain aspects of his past. But why does Lelouch switch between ore as his usual self and watashi as Zero? Is it just to keep people wondering about the true identity of Zero or do you think there's another reason?

I mean, Suzaku seems to differentiate between Zero and Lelouch, choosing to see them as two seperate people at times. Rolo does it too, sometimes, but not nearly as often as Suzaku and eventually drops the concept all together after Lelouch sways him to his side. Does anyone else do this as well? Does Lelouch see himself and Zero as two different people or does he see them as one and the same? I'm thinking he believes he and Zero are one and the same, so why the use of watashi? Why not even just boku?

Comments

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

I think "watashi" at least at the beginning was for a completely neutral, mysterious persona that could embody everything and nothing. Perfect for a leader whose identity was supposed to remain a total secret. But as it went on, I do think that he began to separate the personas as he needed them in his life (before they began to fuse when he started going into battles unmasked, etc.).

THESE ARE MY QUICK THOUGHTS

[qwertumz.livejournal.com]

I'll agree with this one - it was for formality, really. Especially since ore indicates boastfulness, and it is true that Zero was boastful at the beginning, he needed followers, and littering his speech with egotistical phrases that need not be there wasn't the way to get them.

... I think. <:

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

Sounds right to me! One needs to at least sound as formal (and serious) as possible when donning a tulip mask of justice, after all.

[lavaliere]

That's what I thought too. Especially when people wondered if Zero was male or female. But I'm not sure there was ever much of a separation between Zero and Lelouch, as Lelouch thought it. He seemed to see them as one in the same... It always seemed to me that Suzaku was just the one to see Zero and Lelouch as separate because, at first, he never considered Lelouch to be Zero. Later, when he finds out they're one in the same, he still separates them.

maybe I'm over thinking this...

[kadekmoment.livejournal.com]

Mm, I was thinking in situations like Euphie's death? Where as Zero, he used her death as a means to gain more ground in his movement (and later on claimed the same in the cave scene). But as Lelouch, he cried for her.

[lavaliere]

I'd never thought of that... I guess I didn't see it that way as much. Hm...

[kagu-chan.livejournal.com]

Watashi is a generally polite or formal form of referring to oneself (the more formal being watakushi, which I think Euphie uses?). It's more appropriate language to be used by someone who leads an organized group unless said person is very deliberately devil-may-care or rude/rough (see Tamaki) or informal. Old-fashioned types like the leaders of the Japan Liberation Front would use ware, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. :(

[lavaliere]

I think you're right on what Euphy and the JLF use. And I can understand the need to present Zero as a ambiguous persona, but why a polite one? He's very assertive when he speaks to the people, yet uses watashi. It seems almsot contradictory. or maybe I don't know enough Japanese to be able to tell

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

In terms of assertion, you can be very assertive using "watashi" while still being formal. (Euphie is incredibly assertive using "watakushi".) "Ore" is considered borderline rude in some situations, simply because of how informal it is. Selfless Suzaku uses "boku", while the more self-absorbed Suzaku uses "ore". For Japanese social norms, Boku!Suzaku looks a lot better and represents better values than Ore!Suzaku.

In English, we really don't have the sort of formal/informal self distinctions, but something comparable might be using contractions. In a formal speech (like a presidential address or something), you don't generally see a speaker use many contractions. However, in casual speech, they're everywhere. It's not necessarily wrong to use contractions in formal speaking, but it's generally not done. Or if it is, it's very sparing.

Considering Japan/Japanese's insanely strict social etiquette, it seems more likely that being so informal as to use "ore" in Zero's position would be out of the question. And, as Lelouch has said more than once, Zero is a symbol. Better to play to the loftier side of the image with more formal language. He also uses "shokun" instead of "minna" to address groups. It's like using "ladies and gentlemen" as opposed to "everybody" or "you guys".

[lavaliere]

Ah, I see~ Thank you, that's very helpful. :)

In my head, it kind of compares to the use of tu vs. vous in French (or the similar versions in other Romance Languages), though it doesn't translate quite the same. I wish English had the same type of oral social distinctions that other languages often do. It's just so much easier to determine a person's sense of self by how they speak, and while we have some distinction (in the form of different accents or like the example you gave with the use of contractions), it's just not the same.

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

In my head, it kind of compares to the use of tu vs. vous in French

*nodnodnod* That's a good example, too, I think.

while we have some distinction (in the form of different accents or like the example you gave with the use of contractions), it's just not the same.

Amen. And then you have the exceptions wherein it's actually more respectful to a person to refer to them by their first names and not "Mr./Ms./Mrs." or whatever... our lists of exceptions are sometimes as long as the examples that follow the rules. XD

Yeah, and honestly, I should qualify all my statements about English with "American English" because who knows if it's different in the UK and Australia or New Zealand? Dude, if someone ever says you can learn a language without learning the culture, they're lyyyyyyyyyying. I taught English in Japan for 18 months and trying to explain why we do certain things and when to use the exceptions made me feel so bad for my students. XD

[dist.livejournal.com]

apapazukamori explained this really well already, but just as an additional note, Jeremiah always used "watashi" even before he was a crazy super-polite cyborg, and he certainly wasn't an unassertive pushover. Speaking politely isn't only about appearing humble, but, however counterintuitive it may seem, about appearing proper and deserving of respect.

[dist.livejournal.com]

This is what I assumed. Formal language would be appropriate for a political leader making speeches on the world stage.

[jczala.livejournal.com]

Nunnally also uses "Watashi" and "Watakushi". In season one, when she's speaking with Sayoko, the student council members, and her brother, she uses "Watashi" to refer herself. But in R2, she uses Watakushi whenever she's talking to an audience and other Britannians. The same goes for Euphie. She only uses "Watakushi" during a formal event, talking to the soldiers, and to her sister sometimes.

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

please use a lj-cut

[lavaliere]

I cut it, but it doesn't contain spoilers and isn't very long?

[nokiirat.livejournal.com]

it comes up long on my flist. usually alot of text over 5 lines is something i usually ask ppl to lj-cut. :)

[lavaliere]

Hm, not the way I see it, but you're the mod-sama~ *salute*

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

Watakushi is used by Euphemia (not too sure) and Nunnally. Or, say, if you're familiar with Ouran Host Club, the girls all used Watakushi, with few exceptions here and there. But the more polite girls would use watakushi. It's quite polite and formal as well. Watashi is also the same. Though I suppose men would prefer watashi over watakushi, though I've seen male characters use it too, can't remember where however.

If you could compare Lelouch with Tamaki (of Ouran) *dies of the crack* while acting as a host, in front of the ladies, he uses Watashi, but in between club members and friends, he uses ore.

Boku (I think means servant somehow), so is very humble and so people like Suzaku, Subaru, Seishirou (from TB/X) use it. (Though Seishirou is mostly wrong in the head...but anyway.)

Ore is rude, of course. But young boys use it until they get a bit old. Or so I've heard/read somewhere. Lelouch is definitely normal (for people to see), so he uses ore. However, I think if he used ore as Zero, it might be revealed that he's young. *shrugs* it can be one of the reasons, besides, using Watashi for being who he is, suits much better than any other word.

As to "ware", it means "us/we" like "waga" (Not too sure on that. Waga does mean "we/us" though). It's a very arrogant way of saying I. However, it also can be attributed to being old and veteran. Usually, old people use "washi". Wara, warera I think mean the same thing, plurals of it. Gaaah, it's complicated. >.>;

Euphemia used watakushi when she was making Suzaku a knight. Then she used a very...odd form of you. I'm not sure how to spell it, but the word seemed archaic. (I've only seen it used in anime like Trinity Blood wherein the vampires used archaic language, so it would be something like "thou" XD)

I don't think that made any sense. @_@ Sorry!

[tigtogtag.livejournal.com]

If you could compare Lelouch with Tamaki (of Ouran) *dies of the crack*

*quietly sketches/writes*

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

...*sort of anticipates but is afraid of the brain-breakage* XDDD

[lavaliere]

I never caught the odd form of you from Euphemia, but again, I don't know much Japanese. However, it kind of makes sense given the setting in which she used it. She was preforming a very ceremonial presentation by knighting Suzaku, and to use the Japanese equivalent of thou would be appropriate.

now I need to go back and watch that episode again

As for Lelouch as Tamaki... ffffff, he's pimp enough. xD; But not nearly spazzy enough, methinks. And I still can't get over Tamaki as Raito Light

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

It sounds somewhat like nanji, I don't know. I can't catch the exact word no matter how many times I hear it. T_T Unless I read it somewhere, it would never be clear.

But yeah, the ceremony required some archaic language, so it fit. And so did the watakushi.

Well. XDDD Lelouch is not spazzy enough for Tamaki, really. XD But the number of girls running after him is. XD And they running after someone who cross-dresses. XD *shot* Oh seriously! Miyano Mamoru-san does Tamaki, Light and Kamui from TRC and just makes me go @_@ that man is insanely talented!

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

Boku (I think means servant somehow), so is very humble

I'm not fluent in Japanese, or a native speaker, but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Generally, if you're trying to be humble, you get more polite, not less. "Boku" is less formal than "watashi". Taking your examples, if you look at Subaru and Seishirou's (and Aoki, too, I think) speech patterns, they both use fairly polite language ("desu/masu", "kudasai", honorifics like "san", etc.), but they're not overly so. If you want the more humble language, look at Hinoto, Hien and Souhi. Very ceremonial, very humble and respectful Japanese. Contrast both with Kamui and Fuuma (and probably Sorata, but Kansai-ben is not something I'm really familiar with), who both use "ore"/"omae" and the dictionary forms of all/most verbs ("Ore wa Kamui da", and all that).

"Boku" is a nice, middling-polite way for a guy to address himself without being overly formal.

[lavaliere]

Only thing I've ever heard on the equivalent on boku = servent is no where close to Japanese. In Ancient Egyptian, bak(u) means servent, but I don't know how you can get from there to Japanese. unless you're a YGO fan >.>;;;

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

According to jisho.org's dictionary, "boku" can translate to "manservant". I would love to know the history behind that definition. :O

[hajiketobiume.livejournal.com]

The character used for boku has another reading, shimobe, which seems more likely to show up as "servant."

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

I heard somewhere that boku can translate to servant. No longer in use as such, but was like that at some period of time. When they servant, it's more like feudal lords and their subjects of sorts. But usually, if a young guy or even an adult uses boku, it is still being polite and humble. Not formal though (too formal), as for that there's watashi. Aoki I couldn't be sure about, so I left him out, but both Subaru and Seishirou use boku, for they were non-assuming and humble. At least, Subaru was, Seishirou is, yeah.

Fuuma, Kamui, Sorata (he uses some word like 'wai'--not sure as I'm relying on my ears here), Kero (also uses Kansai-ben) they use ore. All the young boys (with a few exceptions) use ore, be any fandom. Like for Naruto, everyone uses ore, only Lee doesn't. Because he's always polite--or rather, humble.

Hinoto uses wara wa to address herself, adds dono with every name aside from Kamui, Souhi, Hien and Kanoe, and uses very odd form of language (to my ears, I mean, she's just using very polite and formal one). The words like moshiwakearimasen or moshiwakegozaimasen (instead of say, sumimasen, suimasen, or gomen nasai). Or adding gozaimasu, nasai, masu, desu, kudasai all indicate various degrees of politeness. Like Hinoto uses almost all of them together at times.

Er...I ramble way too much. XD

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

Using "boku" is more polite than using "ore", but I wouldn't say the person was being humble. If you look at a series like Utena, the main female character uses "boku" to refer to herself. It's used that way to show how much of an anomaly she is. All the other women use "watashi". Utena takes a step down the formality ladder in order to set herself apart. Creating a situation wherein one actively stands out is not humble behavior.

All the young boys (with a few exceptions) use ore, be any fandom.

I could name several series where the majority of young men don't use "ore" to refer to themselves. Kyou Kara Maou comes to mind.

My point in including Hinoto is that she does use humble, super-polite Japanese. Subaru and Seishirou don't. And if using "boku" is designed for use with modest, meek, submissive men, why does Seishirou use it? (And saying he's messed up is not the right answer, here...)

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

Boku isn't overly humble, but usually, it's like you said, more polite and acceptable than ore. Acceptable in the sense how you talk to peers. I remember several characters using both boku and ore, one being Tsuna from Reborn. Tsuna is the type you'd think would use boku in general, but he doesn't. As to ore, I've seen girls use it too. In fact, I heard Nina use it twice. I doubted my ears when I first heard it, but then she uses it only twice. Then there's a character in Reborn, a woman who uses ore. *shrugs*

I meant shounen fandoms. >.>; since I dwell there more than shoujo. KKM does have males using boku. Yuuri, Murata, Wolfram, all use boku. Can't remember what Conrad uses though. Hm.

Seishirou's behaviour is always at odds. I mean, he's always smiling, behaves kindly towards people, and yet, possesses no feelings, so to speak. He takes on an unassuming personality of a mild, meek man. That's how he was with Subaru, and that continued in X. I can't see him talking rudely because he isn't rude. He's always polite, sweet, and deadly. XD (It's a part of what makes him so awesome.)

Hinoto's speech patters make my eyes go @_@

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

PATTERNS* *headdesk*

[jczala.livejournal.com]

Kaoru (Powered Buttercup) from Powerpuff Girls Z uses "Ore" to refer herself. Well, she's not exactly girlish and is like a boy. She even has fangirls at school. When girls refer to themselves in a manly term, they're either boyish or rather proud. Anyway, majority of the female uses "Watashi" and the informal term for that is "Atashi".

[scuba-dooba.livejournal.com]

According to this website:http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/subway/4346/anime/boku.html, "ore" is an almost exclusively male, somewhat rude, "cool" pronoun for "I" or "me", "boku" is mostly young male for "I" or "me", and "watashi" is the standard and polite way to say "I" or "me".

Perhaps Lelouch uses "watashi" as Zero both to differentiate between his two personas and because "watashi", coming from a leader, is more pleasing to the ear of the public. Like, if a supposed hero doesn't respect you-he isn't polite when he talks to you, why should you respect him?

Or something. I'm just thinking out loud.

[nefadol.livejournal.com]

One thing I noticed while rewatching the first season a while back was that Lelouch used boku when he was a child and also used it again when he was talking to Clovis. He hasn't used it since that time from what I've noticed.

It is kind of interesting though, Lelouch went from boku to ore while Suzaku did the opposite.

[jczala.livejournal.com]

I've noticed that too. Lelouch used Boku to Clovis.

[himeno-sakura.livejournal.com]

In kansai dialect, you often here people refer to themselves as "washi" and "uchi". I think "uchi" is used mainly by girls. When I speak Japanese, I use "Watashi", while my friend uses "Atashi".