A Question About Ore vs. Boku vs. Watashi

[lavaliere]

I think we've all had enough with posts relating to Episode 19, yes? Even if I still get teary-eyed just thinking about it So, let's have a bit of a discussion.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before. I haven't seen a post on it, so....

Even those of us who completely fail at moonspeak Japanese are able to pick up certain words and phrases at times. I do this, myself, from time to time. And so, going back to watch the first season again, I picked up on something I hadn't before. Zero refers to himself with the watashi form of me or I whereas Lelouch uses ore.

Now, I understand that the way a person refers to themselves depends greatly on their personality. Someone who is more polite tends to use boku or watashi while a guy who is more self-assured might use ore. Those that are very self-assured, or even egotistic might use ore-sama.

We know that Suzaku switches between ore and boku usually when he's affected by the Live Geass or certain aspects of his past. But why does Lelouch switch between ore as his usual self and watashi as Zero? Is it just to keep people wondering about the true identity of Zero or do you think there's another reason?

I mean, Suzaku seems to differentiate between Zero and Lelouch, choosing to see them as two seperate people at times. Rolo does it too, sometimes, but not nearly as often as Suzaku and eventually drops the concept all together after Lelouch sways him to his side. Does anyone else do this as well? Does Lelouch see himself and Zero as two different people or does he see them as one and the same? I'm thinking he believes he and Zero are one and the same, so why the use of watashi? Why not even just boku?

Comments

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

Watakushi is used by Euphemia (not too sure) and Nunnally. Or, say, if you're familiar with Ouran Host Club, the girls all used Watakushi, with few exceptions here and there. But the more polite girls would use watakushi. It's quite polite and formal as well. Watashi is also the same. Though I suppose men would prefer watashi over watakushi, though I've seen male characters use it too, can't remember where however.

If you could compare Lelouch with Tamaki (of Ouran) *dies of the crack* while acting as a host, in front of the ladies, he uses Watashi, but in between club members and friends, he uses ore.

Boku (I think means servant somehow), so is very humble and so people like Suzaku, Subaru, Seishirou (from TB/X) use it. (Though Seishirou is mostly wrong in the head...but anyway.)

Ore is rude, of course. But young boys use it until they get a bit old. Or so I've heard/read somewhere. Lelouch is definitely normal (for people to see), so he uses ore. However, I think if he used ore as Zero, it might be revealed that he's young. *shrugs* it can be one of the reasons, besides, using Watashi for being who he is, suits much better than any other word.

As to "ware", it means "us/we" like "waga" (Not too sure on that. Waga does mean "we/us" though). It's a very arrogant way of saying I. However, it also can be attributed to being old and veteran. Usually, old people use "washi". Wara, warera I think mean the same thing, plurals of it. Gaaah, it's complicated. >.>;

Euphemia used watakushi when she was making Suzaku a knight. Then she used a very...odd form of you. I'm not sure how to spell it, but the word seemed archaic. (I've only seen it used in anime like Trinity Blood wherein the vampires used archaic language, so it would be something like "thou" XD)

I don't think that made any sense. @_@ Sorry!

[tigtogtag.livejournal.com]

If you could compare Lelouch with Tamaki (of Ouran) *dies of the crack*

*quietly sketches/writes*

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

...*sort of anticipates but is afraid of the brain-breakage* XDDD

[lavaliere]

I never caught the odd form of you from Euphemia, but again, I don't know much Japanese. However, it kind of makes sense given the setting in which she used it. She was preforming a very ceremonial presentation by knighting Suzaku, and to use the Japanese equivalent of thou would be appropriate.

now I need to go back and watch that episode again

As for Lelouch as Tamaki... ffffff, he's pimp enough. xD; But not nearly spazzy enough, methinks. And I still can't get over Tamaki as Raito Light

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

It sounds somewhat like nanji, I don't know. I can't catch the exact word no matter how many times I hear it. T_T Unless I read it somewhere, it would never be clear.

But yeah, the ceremony required some archaic language, so it fit. And so did the watakushi.

Well. XDDD Lelouch is not spazzy enough for Tamaki, really. XD But the number of girls running after him is. XD And they running after someone who cross-dresses. XD *shot* Oh seriously! Miyano Mamoru-san does Tamaki, Light and Kamui from TRC and just makes me go @_@ that man is insanely talented!

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

Boku (I think means servant somehow), so is very humble

I'm not fluent in Japanese, or a native speaker, but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Generally, if you're trying to be humble, you get more polite, not less. "Boku" is less formal than "watashi". Taking your examples, if you look at Subaru and Seishirou's (and Aoki, too, I think) speech patterns, they both use fairly polite language ("desu/masu", "kudasai", honorifics like "san", etc.), but they're not overly so. If you want the more humble language, look at Hinoto, Hien and Souhi. Very ceremonial, very humble and respectful Japanese. Contrast both with Kamui and Fuuma (and probably Sorata, but Kansai-ben is not something I'm really familiar with), who both use "ore"/"omae" and the dictionary forms of all/most verbs ("Ore wa Kamui da", and all that).

"Boku" is a nice, middling-polite way for a guy to address himself without being overly formal.

[lavaliere]

Only thing I've ever heard on the equivalent on boku = servent is no where close to Japanese. In Ancient Egyptian, bak(u) means servent, but I don't know how you can get from there to Japanese. unless you're a YGO fan >.>;;;

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

According to jisho.org's dictionary, "boku" can translate to "manservant". I would love to know the history behind that definition. :O

[hajiketobiume.livejournal.com]

The character used for boku has another reading, shimobe, which seems more likely to show up as "servant."

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

I heard somewhere that boku can translate to servant. No longer in use as such, but was like that at some period of time. When they servant, it's more like feudal lords and their subjects of sorts. But usually, if a young guy or even an adult uses boku, it is still being polite and humble. Not formal though (too formal), as for that there's watashi. Aoki I couldn't be sure about, so I left him out, but both Subaru and Seishirou use boku, for they were non-assuming and humble. At least, Subaru was, Seishirou is, yeah.

Fuuma, Kamui, Sorata (he uses some word like 'wai'--not sure as I'm relying on my ears here), Kero (also uses Kansai-ben) they use ore. All the young boys (with a few exceptions) use ore, be any fandom. Like for Naruto, everyone uses ore, only Lee doesn't. Because he's always polite--or rather, humble.

Hinoto uses wara wa to address herself, adds dono with every name aside from Kamui, Souhi, Hien and Kanoe, and uses very odd form of language (to my ears, I mean, she's just using very polite and formal one). The words like moshiwakearimasen or moshiwakegozaimasen (instead of say, sumimasen, suimasen, or gomen nasai). Or adding gozaimasu, nasai, masu, desu, kudasai all indicate various degrees of politeness. Like Hinoto uses almost all of them together at times.

Er...I ramble way too much. XD

[apapazukamori.livejournal.com]

Using "boku" is more polite than using "ore", but I wouldn't say the person was being humble. If you look at a series like Utena, the main female character uses "boku" to refer to herself. It's used that way to show how much of an anomaly she is. All the other women use "watashi". Utena takes a step down the formality ladder in order to set herself apart. Creating a situation wherein one actively stands out is not humble behavior.

All the young boys (with a few exceptions) use ore, be any fandom.

I could name several series where the majority of young men don't use "ore" to refer to themselves. Kyou Kara Maou comes to mind.

My point in including Hinoto is that she does use humble, super-polite Japanese. Subaru and Seishirou don't. And if using "boku" is designed for use with modest, meek, submissive men, why does Seishirou use it? (And saying he's messed up is not the right answer, here...)

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

Boku isn't overly humble, but usually, it's like you said, more polite and acceptable than ore. Acceptable in the sense how you talk to peers. I remember several characters using both boku and ore, one being Tsuna from Reborn. Tsuna is the type you'd think would use boku in general, but he doesn't. As to ore, I've seen girls use it too. In fact, I heard Nina use it twice. I doubted my ears when I first heard it, but then she uses it only twice. Then there's a character in Reborn, a woman who uses ore. *shrugs*

I meant shounen fandoms. >.>; since I dwell there more than shoujo. KKM does have males using boku. Yuuri, Murata, Wolfram, all use boku. Can't remember what Conrad uses though. Hm.

Seishirou's behaviour is always at odds. I mean, he's always smiling, behaves kindly towards people, and yet, possesses no feelings, so to speak. He takes on an unassuming personality of a mild, meek man. That's how he was with Subaru, and that continued in X. I can't see him talking rudely because he isn't rude. He's always polite, sweet, and deadly. XD (It's a part of what makes him so awesome.)

Hinoto's speech patters make my eyes go @_@

[helreginn.livejournal.com]

PATTERNS* *headdesk*

[jczala.livejournal.com]

Kaoru (Powered Buttercup) from Powerpuff Girls Z uses "Ore" to refer herself. Well, she's not exactly girlish and is like a boy. She even has fangirls at school. When girls refer to themselves in a manly term, they're either boyish or rather proud. Anyway, majority of the female uses "Watashi" and the informal term for that is "Atashi".