R2 Episode 5 Discussion: Knight takes Queen

[nayami.livejournal.com]

First, I am only posting this because I see the other discussion post carries a specific topic. I know that more than a few of us have been anticipating this episode since spoilers leaked, and it definitely didn't disappoint. But I really wanted to get into some issues with the boyas, as always. Also I have to take this moment to say that you really shouldn't expect to be too surprised if you're reading spoilers. I read them too, and I wish I didn't. Le sob. Blah blah be nice to characters/opinions and no mentioning spoilers. It's party time Ashford style!



I thought the episode did an amusing job of balancing Lelouch's bitchiness (knocking C.C. into the tomato bin and closing it, snarling at her for running out in the open, plotting to catch Suzaku, delivering the verbal smack-down to Villetta and continuing his mind games with Rollo) with his utter fail. I will never get tired of watching everyone outrun Lelouch. Actually, let's take a moment to examine some of that bitchiness in more detail. I was a bit irked that Lelouch went for Villetta so suddenly since it seems a bit sloppy for him. He has a good piece of information yes, but he's better off continuing to play his game, especially now that he has Rollo on his side. That said, his delivering of "Happy Birthday" was delicious. He's gambling too much on Villetta's fear that the Ougi thing will destroy her; he should know better than to underestimate Villetta.

There is also his hypocrisy about secrets. I love the disparity between his casually telling Kallen that it's all right for him to have a few secrets after she questions his not telling them about the pilot of the Vincent. It's not even that Lelouch never keeps a few secrets and not even that those secrets got the Black Knights captured in the first place. It's that in the same episode Lelouch acts utterly disappointed that Ougi would dare keep the Villetta thing a secret from him. I always knew Lelouch was a hypocrite, but now I can claim it without shame. Still, I forgive his bitchiness because he's Lulu and he's been mind-raped, lost his sister and thoroughly messed things up based on one case of very bad timing. I think he's entitled to a little bit of snappish behavior. He's also an arrogant ass at times. As long as he's not too sloppy, I'm happy.

I do whine a bit about Lelouch not being made to stand up for his actions at the Black Rebellion. Way to let your leader off the hook, lemmings. I swear Zero has maybe five competent people on his team and the rest are canon fodder. Maybe not to him but to everyone with a brain.

Slick move putting in the shot of the wall and the hatch marks that just trail off. Limit to geass or did something happen to our little Carve-tan? I know everyone is reading to go "OMG Suzaku is screwed," but keep in mind the creators say his geass is still going to nail him. I also am wary about this "limited" geass notion, as it goes against everything the creators have said. But we will see.

I do enjoy Rollo wavering between wanting to shiv Lelouch and wanting to kill Suzaku. The scene where Rollo tells him to hold the knife carefully while Suzaku does his stalking thing is so adorable. Speaking of the stalker, the way he holds authority is all new levels of hot. And as I crazy-theorized earlier, he is acting very Lelouchesque, right down to his wording at times.

I cannot believe the creators were evil enough to barrage us with more adorable chibi flashbacks before getting into the game of lies and espionage that was this episode. Some have pointed out it's quite telling that Lelouch and Suzaku never complete their statement about what they are to each other now. I do wonder if Lelouch truly thought he could fool Suzaku since he was so confident that he had Suzaku just because Suzaku came to see Lelouch. I am it was obvious why Suzaku given the seat next to him. He had to know Suzaku was checking on his memories; he saw him stalking him. Why didn't he act first? Was he just that damn cocky? I am not sure if this was more foolish trust in the friendship or what, but it seems a dangerous dangerous game for him to play. And he lost. Guess the worst enemy is most often the self, huh Lelouch? I also love that Suzaku is smarter than Villetta when it comes to Lelouch, not at all fooled by Lelouch's ruse.

Suzaku's ability to shift between his personas blows my mind. It's better than ever. The difference between Rivalz hanging off him and Gino doing the same is worlds apart. I think Suzaku's reaction around people is another result of not wanting to lose anyone, not wanting them to get close to him. But he's willing to fake at school because that is what everyone expects. And Suzaku has always been good at faking. But I do believe some of it is sincere such as his trying to reassure Milly that Lloyd is just a bizarre person. And of course, his love for Arthur, who still shows his appreciation in violent ways of cute. I will insert squeeing about KotR here, but really we need some more scenes with Anya before we can actually say anything about her. Gino really is Tamaki with a mecha. WHAT A TERRIFYING THOUGHT. Him and his love of commoners.

Ok so Nunnally. First, I am tired of seeing "Suzaku used Nunnally." Truly tired of it. And here is why. I don't think Suzaku is using Nunnally, but he is using her importance to Lelouch. I think Suzaku's goal to become Knight of One and take Japan, especially if he has someone who is sympathetic toward the Japanese on his side (similar to Euphie), has merit in his mind. I also do not believe Suzaku would hurt Nunnally. As he says, he already lost enough people. I also debate on the "important friends" line because both blogs used "friend" and Suzaku only has two people he "lost". I think the line refers to Lelouch and Euphie only. Which gets into issues of double mentality, similar to Kallen. I might elaborate on this later. But it plays back to what happened in the throne room. Note, I find Turn 1 entirely inconsistent with anything else we've seen thus far so aside from the big picture, I remove most of it from this analysis. In either case, I don't think Suzaku is out to hurt Nunnally. I think he truly wants to work with her to fix things. There's also the fact that only the Emperor can appoint Governor Generals. Suzaku might have made the suggestion, but he only has so much influence. The Emperor would have known as well. But yes, Suzaku is using the relationship to place Lelouch/Zero in check. As makes sense since he needs to stop Zero by any means possible. He doesn't believe the Japanese need Zero; they can be saved without his methods.

Also in response to people's whining about Suzaku's goals being foolish and ill-thought and liable to only be a band-aid... umm we're supporting someone who thinks he can overthrow an entire empire... and then what? Suddenly free people? What about the EU and China? What about the Britannia momeland mainland? Both players have extreme goals, and who's to say one has more likelihood than the other. Perspective as always.

About the "lost friend" line, I do believe Suzaku thinks Lelouch is beyond redemption, that Zero has destroyed him, and that it is Suzaku's fault as well for not stopping him when he could have. (There is debate on this issue, regarding Suzaku possibly using Nunnally and his words about Japan not needing Zero as a warning to Lelouch to BACK THE HELL OFF before he has to take action.) I also believe that Suzaku was prepared to let Lelouch live without his memories. Since "Zero" was effectively dead. I also note that after telling Kallen that "This is Lelouch," his words to Lelouch are "Zero, I will stop you." He only refers to him as Lelouch again when he is answering his question. Note: "I told you, Lelouch. I would change Britannia from the inside." His expression. It's almost like he's not even talking to him, he is repeating something he always told his friend. I think Suzaku has distanced the Lelouch he knew from Zero to a point. This is no longer the friend he cherished. He cannot get him back. So yes, he has lost him.

And what of his talk about having enough military power? With Nunnally in place, Zero is well and truly stuck (ehem people talking about Lelouch possibly killing Nunnally scare me because NO). Why does Suzaku need full strength? By the way, I totally laughed at him chewing out Gino for not bringing Lancelot. YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY. What is Suzaku's role in the plot to catch C.C.? What was his role in the plot to do so by killing the bait: amnesiac Lelouch? Of course, this depends heavily on whether my suggestion that Suzaku would have let amnesiac!Lelouch live is true. I also throw the possibility of the end of Turn 1 being a flash-forward into this mix since it would be the only way of retaining consistency, with Suzaku's declaration of being the one to kill Zero. One thing's for sure, Suzaku is surely the trump card that was sent after Lelouch. What does the Emperor have in mind?

I will now take this moment to laugh at the hilarious fanservice and then urge Kallen to call Lelouch on his bullshit more often. Seriously. Fight the good fight, Kallen!

Comments

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Yes, it gets tricky when you bring it Turn 2 because while I don't think Suzaku had any idea what would happen to Lelouch when he brought him before the Emperor, nor cared for that matter, he made the active decision not to kill him. He made the decision to use Zero to work toward saving Japan in a way that would not need Zero. I think when the whole geass and rewriting memories came up, it must have seemed to make the most sense to Suzaku, not that he was too much caring what was going on at the time and that he was really really in the mood to hurt Zero. But I am thrilled someone else agrees to my double mentality theory.

Even if Lelouch tries to fake a reaction, I worry that his natural and unconscious reaction will give him away. But it will be fun to see if he tries to get away with it anyway.

Well, Nunnally said she's the governor-general so, unless she's evil, I'm inclined to believe her. As I said in another comment, I think Suzaku has ditched his previous hangups and realized he has to fight fire with fire. If he wants to stop Zero, he has to think like Zero/Lelouch.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oho! I love this idea of Nunnally taking up the position of her own choice. But I really do wonder what she thinks has become of Lelouch during all this? What did anyone tell her? I assume Suzaku has been with her and taking care of her. And what does Nunnally think about Euphie since she would have had to have heard about the massacre by now.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

... Umm I'm still not sure this is a good thing, as far as the Emperor goes. This is where we get into the tricky matter of whether Suzaku is not falling into another trap since nobody knows where the Emperor stands. But hey, the plan is as good as any.

Lelouch always manages to get the upper hand. He's Lelouch. He's just not at the top of his game right now since he's still kind of reeling.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not like Lelouch can become the Knight of One. He's supposed to be dead. Unless you are referring to trying to encourage Suzaku to become the Knight of One before. He definitely did seem surprised though, but I think that was more along the lines of "You really thought out all that...? D-Damn, must counter with cynicism." XD

[meijioro.livejournal.com]

If he doesn't fake the conversation with Nunnally, I can really see him talking naturally with her and telling her that he'll see her soon (i.e. I'm gonna kidnap you back.) Though if he does that I really want him to thank Suzaku for letting him know that Nunnally is "safe and healthy" because he was sick with worry for her well being in his friend mode. And then go into silent rage at Suzaku and tell him strait up that THIS IS WAR!

He could appeal to Suzaku's noble side and his duality though process to get himself out of this pickle and say, "If you want to go after me then go after me in the battlefield as Zero."

[fox-holland.livejournal.com]

Suzaku used Nunnally doesn't sound right to me.

Actually I thought the Emperor re-accepted Nunnally into the Royal Family, since it wasn't she who declared to get rid of her title and destroy Britannia, just Lelouch. Overall, I just REALLY thought this was all the Emperor's doing to rub it in Lelouch's face.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I prefer supporting Suzaku without demonizing Lelouch. He does that to himself enough on his own. But I still like poking fun at the world of contradictions that is the dear. They are both my babies in either case and I will analyze unto the ends of the world!

Thus, I accept your love so long as it comes with cookies. ^^b

[meijioro.livejournal.com]

Maybe not encourage but do under the counter dealings and manipulation to get Suzaku or someone of better chances to get into that position.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

I just can't believe he would do it AGAIN.

You know, I think that is a HUGE example of Lelouch's "that's in the past" mindset coming back to bite him in the ass. He has not allowed himself ANY time to process what has been done to him. He just scrambles forward and forward because he thinks that's what he needs to do - and he is truly putting himself through excruciating emotional torture, because we know how deeply Lelouch can feel. Problem is, when you refuse to "experience" what has been done to you, you fail to learn from it. His vision of Suzaku is outdated (has been like that for a long time). He has not even allowed himself to feel really MAD at him. But I guess that will change soon because you know, NUNNALLY.

Ah, I'm sure safety is one of Lelouch's top priority, if not his top priority. Charles has ensured that his sense self-preservation (in a large sense) was extremely keen. XD

And yes, his reaction was damn ironic. I loved that you pointed that out, because I totally missed it. XD

Now, Lelouch killing Nunnally? That would be weird. o_O I wonder WHAT would make him do something like that.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oh I do believe the Emperor has a hand in it, but I still believe Suzaku is protecting her. I don't see him as one to take out his vengeance on someone else, again given that bit about not wanting to lose anyone else. Though, I do love the idea of the Emperor giving back Nunnally's title just to go "SUCKS TO BE YOU, PRINCE LELOUCH."

[zerorevenge.livejournal.com]

(http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/weepingprincess/?action=view&current=igl.png)

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Good for you. Thanks for acknowledging a simple wish to discuss things with neutrality.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oho~! Those will do nicely. ♥ ♥

[nayami.livejournal.com]

I don't think he would have used Suzaku like that in that point of the game though, and he really did just want to protect him. That idea wouldn't even have crossed his mind unfortunately.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

That would actually be pretty damn amusing, the natural talking with Nunnally bit before cool cool rage. Oh and I think the boys are done appealing to each other's noble side. This is no-holds-barred battle. Lelouch cannot do cool-minded when dealing with Nunnally, even if he wanted to. She's his ultimate weakness; Suzaku knows him so very well.

[vicks111.livejournal.com]

oh, I never said it was good. We know the Emperor is just using everyone, and the fact that he gets one missing heir seems to be a plus. After all, he does seem to like having tons of heirs for the throne.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Ah, I respect your POV but I beg to differ. XD IMHO, Geass and the Death Note are very different in nature and results. I will refrain from arguing further, tho, because those DN threads have the bad habit of getting huge and tiresome and that's not the place for them. Also, I have like other two hundred things going on here. So I will let somebody else catch up with it if they wish to. :) Sorry about that.

[birdsarecalling.livejournal.com]

That's true, but while Suzaku definitely IS the boss of Villeta, Rollo, and random grunt pilots, he's not actually the boss of Gino or Anya. They're both ranked higher than him in KotR, and Suzaku was surprised that Anya showed up in Japan. Anya seems to only have joined him on a whim (emphasis on the word seems - I wouldn't be surprised if there's an ulterior motive there).

Compare the scenes where Rivalz is hanging all over Suzaku, to the one where it's Gino doing the hugging. In the scnee with Rivalz, Suzaku is doing his usual Ashford faking routine. But with Gino, he doesn't try to pull the alpha male card, nor does he pretend to be good friends. He looks uncomfortable and put out, and awkwardly tries to remind Gino of how unprofessional he's being.

I'm not saying that Suzaku is being one hundred percent genuine. I'm not even sure he knows how to be one hundred percent genuine. But I do think that the side he shows around the KotR is more his real face than the one he wears elsewhere.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Oh I definitely approve of that take on it. You do need to actually experience to learn, and Lelouch has been too busy trying to regain his advantage and find his sister to allow himself that. So it makes perfect sense that he's relying on what he thought he knew and what he was familiar with to make his decisions. That actually makes me feel a lot more comfortable about his naivety here.

Charles is a very good teacher.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

Hey that's right! Suzaku with authority does play quite well into your theory about Suzaku missing his birthright. Knight of One is even a bit close to that from what it sounds like. Hmmm~.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I'm quite aware that Anya and Gino are technically his superiors, but Britannian system also relies heavily on "who is really in control". It's about formal hierarchy, but it is also very much about actual power, and I think Suzaku is basking gloriously on that. XD

I get now what you said about Suzaku being more real around them than he was around the Ashford people and your take makes perfect sense - he does seem more natural, now that you mention it. But I'm really, really not that sure because I don't trust Suzaku that much. XD Boy is a damn good liar and I wonder if he knows who his real or "natural" self is. XD On the other hand, I'm inclined to believe Suzaku's inner chibi daimyou is uber happy at this point. XD

[celemna.livejournal.com]

I understand both point of views honestly.

But in the end I understand one truth:

The dark and the anguish both feel gives them rights and makes them both far less demonic than I would call anyone. Suzaku knows about Geass, but he doesn't know Lelouch's side and will likely never believe it. Lelouch is being hurt by a friend he loved, and had the sister he gave up everything to save replaced and now used against him.

Neither does the best, both are selfish. But they both have reasons and they're understandable, I can't say for a minute I wouldn't do either.

[realms-of-life.livejournal.com]

Too close, actually. o_O If you squint at Suzaku's speech, he seems to have implied that Nunnally would rule and he would govern. Very much like the relationship between a President and a PM, or between an actual Governor General and a PM.

[poftd.livejournal.com]

SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HATE SUZAKU AFTER THAT EP? YES.

ILU and your sensibility.

[nayami.livejournal.com]

In the end, I think that is the best stance to have on Geass and the stance the creators intended. Geass was never supposed to be about black and white. Hence why Britannia is shown to have its good side as well, and the Rebellion has its idiots. Your stance is the one I wish more would take, where you take a look at it from each POV and realize what the other has to work with and why they are responding the way they are. Strangely enough, I don't think Lelouch's side of the story truly absolves him since it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't planned to use Euphie in the first place. I think this may be part of the reason he doesn't bother to defend himself. He did kill Euphie; he killed her by not distancing himself from her and by not understanding why she was doing what she was doing. Lelouch cannot change those facts.