Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Yeah. You can't completely think of Suzaku as a bad guy due to his actions at the end of Season 1 because his feeling are understandable. It's not fair to Euphie that she will be remembered for going crazy and having to be killed. But, sadly, the fact that Suzaku disregarded their friendship and handed Lelouch over to the king is disappointing because of the effect. It'd been one thing if LeLouch had died, but he was instead made to forget his precious sister and live a fake life in its stead which, to me, is far more depressing than death.

I can't hate him for giving up on their friendship but it's disappointing and makes his character less easy to relate to and more of a viallain.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* I do feel for Suzaku, I really do. What was done to him and Euphie was absolutely terrible. But at the same time, if you adopt his technique, if he stepped back from it all, you just have to wonder why he didn't give Lelouch 'another chance'. After all, Britannia basically took over Japan and Suzaku was willing to give Britannia a chance, despite everything it's done. I guess being in love changes everything. :(

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd argue that Suzaku hasn't given Britannia a chance. Since he was 10 years old and Japan lost its name he has been working slowly but surely from within the law to win Japan back its freedom. Suzaku is giving the law a chance not Britannia, it's not the same thing. Suzaku is not all "Yeah!!! I'm an honorary Britannian, we should all work to become Britannian!!" He just strongly believes after his one time stepping outside of the law, no matter how young he was or possibly accidental that it is important to always work within the norms.

Ummm there is nothing we've seen yet that makes it clear Charles was involved in Marianne's death. Heck, Lelouch thought Cornellia was involved in her death and it turns out she completely adored Marianne and was not involved at all. For all we know, CC did it!

I think Suzaku probably felt he was giving Lelouch another chance the whole time he suspected Lelouch was Zero.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, that's true, but we'd have to reeeeally squint to see that. Right now, even if Suzaku is telling himself that he's using Britannia to create world peace, he's DEEPLY immersed in Britannia's ranks. He can't deny his association with Britannia just like how Zero can't deny his role in Euphie's death. They're both kind of... stuck there.

I actually wasn't referring to Lelouch going through the ranks of the Royal Family (Cornelia, Clovis, etc.) but more to how his father refused to even CARE for him or Nunally after the death of their mother. That childhood scene where Lulu is one little cute, angry ball of fluff, lol.

Hmm... That's true about Suzaku giving Lulu another chance, but we have nothing but his word on how much he 'thought' Zero was Lulu before the helmet came off. I highly doubt he's known for a long time. Plus, Lulu gave Suzaku plenty of second chances as well. He saved him repeatedly when there was no clear advantage in it for him or the Black Knights. :-/ That whole second chance thing is still up for debate.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But Lelouch definitely knows Suzaku is the pilot of Lancelot starting in episode 17 and Lelouch is convinced that given time Suzaku will see how his plan is the only way to do things. Being his oldest friend, Lelouch wants Suzaku's approval and so keeps rescuing him when necessarily even geass'ing him to live.

I think Suzaku doesn't even start to suspect until post the island episode.

I don't think its squinting at all, I think Suzaku makes it quite clear he always sees himself as Japanese.

BTW I just want to note again, despite it being less dramatic, Suzaku's way would have worked if Lelouch had not geass'ed Euphie when he did. It's not that far fetched or unbelievable.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

I don't know. :-/ Suzaku hasn't claimed for a while that he's Japanese, and he's aiming to be top brass in the Britannia ranks at this point. That's bound to confuse people (and characters) because he's no longer fighting "for Japan", he's simply fighting "against the Black Knights".

About Lelouch geassing Euphie, I don't agree that it was intentional AT ALL. I thought the show made it very clear that he, just like everyone, has rambled about stupid things in front of people. He wouldn't have screamed for her or chased her if he meant it to happen. I've told plenty of friends jokingly that "I hate them" or that "they suck". It was the same deal for Lelouch. I know he wasn't all that happy about Euphie's plans to take away his glory, but he definitely didn't want her to die on the spot or to go down in history at some terrible person.

But yes, it may have worked. Very very slowly, but it may have worked. Sunrise doesn't tend to think about things working slowly though. ^^;

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Except you don't have magical mind powers that can force your friends to do anything you command them to do and know from seeing someone else lose control of said powers that it can happen. What Lelouch did is the equivalent of going out with some buddies drinking and then gets in a car and kills a family of 4 on his way home cause he was drunk. It's not a complete accident, but he's also not completely guilt free either since he shouldn't have gotten in the car.

And it's important to remember that Lelouch did go to meet Euphie with the stated purpose of geass'ing Euphie so that she would shoot him and thus discredit her in front of everyone and ruin her plan because he wanted to carry out his revenge. It wasn't until Euphie played the Nunnally card that Lelouch decided to let her plan go through.

No, Suzaku's plan WOULD HAVE WORKED IF LELOUCH HAD NOT GEASSED EUPHIE not slowly, not maybe would have worked, it was about to happen. I can really see why Suzaku would be pretty damn devastated to have had his best friend ruin this for no apparent reason other than for revenge.

And again, I think the fact Suzaku says in episode 05 specifically, Japan does not need Zero anymore, because he is going to become Knight of the One so he can claim Japan for himself should make it pretty clear he's still thinking about Japan. He's aiming to be top brass so he can free Japan. And the fact Suzaku specifically calls it "Japan" and not "Area 11" is very telling in and of itself. Considering Suzaku gets a hell of a lot less screen time than Lelouch and that is one of the longest speeches he's made in R2 I don't really see where the viewers confusion at least is coming from, even if it's up for debate regarding the other characters.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

The fact that Suzaku gets less screen time is, in my opinion, the exact reason why it IS up for debate. We're pretty sure on how Lelouch thinks by now, but not Suzaku, so you can't toss out certainty about anything he does because we simply don't have proof.

Like I said, we can't be certain whether Suzaku's plan would've work. I said slowly because it wasn't like the entire population of Japan was there. There's bound to be unhappy or unwilling people to join Euphie's clan, even if the people actually there were curious and were willing to give her a chance. Japan is well-populated, it will take a LONG time to get everyone on Euphie's side. Nothing in Geass is instantaneous. You're making speculations involving "what if's" that are not shown in the anime, so as reasonable as they are, they're still speculations. As are mine, of course, so I'm not saying that I'm 100% sure about Lelouch actions either.

Also, about the accident analogy, it doesn't necessarily mean that Lulu is evil for using the Geass. He didn't ASK for it. He got it through actually doing something good, namely saving C.C. when he didn't have a clue who she was or what she was doing. If he simply sat at home and didn't use it because it was against his morals, that would've made for a very stupid story. :-/ He's an ambitious character and by nature, he's going to use the power. I don't agree with his plan to Geass Euphie to begin with, but as you did point out, he WAS willing to let her go through with her plan at that point, and that makes all the difference when his power goes bonkers and wrecks havoc on her.

And about him geassing people to die in general, I still stick with my theory that Lelouch is, above all else, a prince. Like Cornelia and the Emperor and so many others in the Royal Family, he doesn't really understand the concept of having common people be as important as him, Nunally or his plans are. He has a mentality very similar to the Emperor's so it shouldn't be that surprising that he's so willing to send people into battle and to shed blood all for his own cause. His scene with Shirley and his shock that her father died is just another example of how much he doesn't understand the concept of common people/soldiers being important.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm wow, just wow. I have no words if you don't even want to give credence to what Suzaku actually says in the series because you want to interpret his actions under a specific light. o_O; I guess this explains to me finally why so many people seem to hate Suzaku.

No, we didn't get to see how long it would have taken for everyone in Japan to be free, however, Suzaku's plan looked like it probably would have worked with considerably less bloodshed and possibly just as fast as any plan of Lelouch's. It's not speculation that Lelouch completely ruined Euphie's attempt to put Suzaku's plan into action. It's not speculation that Lelouch went to meet Euphie with the plan to geass her in order to wreck said plan even if he later changed his mind. He was still willing to sacrifice a beloved and innocent sister to feed his desire for revenge. Perhaps you feel it would have made a stupid story for Lelouch never to have used his geass, but working within the story, Lelouch does have that choice and because he is ambitious and because he has always planned to seek revenge on Britannia (something he tells CC) he has made his choice.

I take umbrage at all the posts claiming Suzaku's plan was unrealistic, impossible, and pure fantasy. It wasn't and at one point in the story seemed like it had a chance to succeed.

I don't think Lelouch is evil, I just don't find him sympathetic at all and I don't agree with his methods at all. I don't feel bad for him and I admit, in R2 I take great pleasure in seeing Suzaku, Lolo, Nunally, your choice of characters disrupt his plans and give him some of the comeuppance he so richly deserves. I do think he is an extremely selfish character who has a hard time seeing anything past himself and what he wants and what he thinks other characters should want.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's because it's finals week and I haven't watched all the R2 episodes all the way through. -___-;; Hence why I'm not bringing up a lot of R2 moments because I haven't seen them yet. I was mainly referring to Season 1, you see my points above.

And stop getting offended and using "um". It's extremely rude in a civil debate to give that sort of attitude. I mean absolutely no offense to Suzaku or your views, I'm just stating my views, and it makes me extremely irritated to see that word continuously come up in this conversation.

Fine, that's just how you see Lelouch. I'm not going to disuade you from that, everyone views everyone differently. Suzaku is a honorable character, and he has strengths along with weaknesses, but that doesn't make him a perfect guy in any sense. You seem inclined to view Lelouch in a certain light so fine, I'm not going to change that either. But dont' get angry at others for seeing Suzaku under a certain light as well, seeing that both of them are imperfect in many different ways.

I never once said that Suzaku's plan was unrealistic or impossible. I did say that *I* would never take his path because it's very hard for me to NOT hold a grudge if someone turned my country into a territory without provocation. But that's what he is as a character, and I respect that. But you also have to respect that Lulu is inherently different from Suzaku and doesn't function at nearly the save wavelength. They had very different childhoods and very different experiences, and in Lulu's eyes, his mother's death and the betrayal of Britannia makes all his actions worth it.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But this discussion topic is specifically debating and discussing episode 06 of R2/R2 in general. The original poster was specifically posting about how the characters and the story has developed in R2. While I appreciate you wanting to share your opinion, it seems a bit unfair of you to ignore the character information and growth we've been given in R2 because you are rightly more involved in school right now.

I can't remember which respondent it was now, but there are several responses to this thread where Suzaku's plan was called unrealistic and the impression was given that it was naive and impossible. I think it is important to remember that within the world of Geass the plan was plausible and could have come to pass. I think that gets forgotten with the tragedy of Euphie and her murderous rampage.

I'm sorry if you feel I was being rude. It was not my intention.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

It actually makes him easier to relate to for me, because his reaction was along the lines of what I would probably have felt myself. Not that I can really gauge how I would feel having never been in that situation, but it certainly seems like something I could be capable of. I think he's been forced to bite his tongue and hold back his anger for so long that it was something to see him let himself feel.