Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have heard of MLK. I wouldn't really say he was working within the system, though. He was putting outside pressure on the system to change, by forcing the lawmakers to recognize the protesters as a large enough force. Suzaku's approach is more... well, he goes right past the Japanese people to work with their oppressors. I guess I would liken him more to Brooker T. Washington than MLK--and Washington got a lot of shit for being a 'sellout.' Also, the wounds are maybe just a bit fresher for the Japanese in Geass than they were for Black Americans in the civil rights movement. The conquering of their nation was still in living memory, remember.

Suzaku does not overlook the people in front of him

I phrased that wrong. I meant that his goals mean more to him than the people he loves. If Nina, Shirley, or Milly were to betray Britannia, he would kill them too. With hesitation, maybe, but for his ultimate goal, he would do it. The best example I have of this is how he killed his own dad to bring peace through surrender.

I rather strongly disagree with Lelouch, particularly since his reasons for revenge have nothing to do with Japan

His heart isn't with Japan. He openly admits that the Black Knights are only his tool to protect Nunally. I'm not saying he's right, but it's easier to sympathize, I think. (That's just my opinion.)

I can tell you why he lost power over his Geass at exactly that moment, while he was making that statement. It's because it made for the most dramatic plot. He doesn't actually have control of when he... loses control. I honestly doubt he was happy, but that's a matter of interpretation, so.

I also never said that Lelouch was moral. Just that he cares a lot about something he wants to protect.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But MLK was working within the system, he was not supporting outright violent rebellion which is what Lelouch is advocating.

I don't think Suzaku's goals mean more to him than the people he cares about. We are shown repeatedly that even the new badass Suzaku is not just a killing machine and does give people a chance. His killing of his father was the one time Suzaku went outside the law and it forever haunts him as a reason to not go outside the law again.

That's great if you want to say he lost control and made that statement as a plot point to make for a "better story" but working within Geass itself, Lelouch still is the one who picks to give that command. He could have commanded Euphie to dance naked under the full moon, but he chose to command her to murder all Japanese.

But does that something necessarily want to be protected and shouldn't he get some input from them before he just declares he is doing it for their own good?

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Working outside of the system != supporting violent rebellion.

It's not just murder. I'm actually basing this statement on one of his more recent actions. Nunally definitely means a lot to Suzaku, yes? And Lelouch means a lot to Nunally. When he gave the phone to Lelouch with Nunally on the other line, the two choice I saw were that 1) Lelouch blows his cover and Suzaku kills him or 2) Lelouch doesn't blow his cover. Since Suzaku's assumption was that if 1 happened, then Lelouch had gotten his memory and that if 2 happened, then he didn't, then what's to say that Lelouch wouldn't have said something like, "Yes, this is Lelouch Lamperouge, but I don't have a sister and I have never had a sister"? Would this not have devastated Nunally--and was Suzaku not prepared for this to happen? (YES THIS PARAGRAPH IS ENTIRELY MY SPECULATION, BUT I WAS REALLY PISSED AT SUZAKU FOR DOING THAT. D:) But yeah, I think that he would have gladly sacrificed her happiness for his orders.

You're assuming he knew he lost control and that he told her to kill all the Japanese knowing that she would have no choice but obey. He was using that as a silly little "Yeah, well I could have..." type of thing more than an actual command.

The Japanese people rallied behind him pretty well for not wanting protection. xD Take the opposite side: Did that something actually want to surrender and shouldn't Suzaku have gotten some input from them before he decided to kill their rebellion 'for their own good'?

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm yeah usually working outside the system generally means something violent...

Actually, I'm not so sure Suzaku would have killed Lelouch right there and then. It's obvious from even before he put Nunnally on the phone that he strongly suspected Lelouch had gotten his memories back, what with his statement about having "lost a precious friend and an irreplaceable woman" as an opening and his statement to Lelouch about Zero no longer being necessary because he is going to save the Japanese. One could even interpret it as Suzaku giving Lelouch a chance to surrender/back down, but Lelouch continues to play innocent.

No, I'm assuming that he was goofing around and could have said anything but he picked that statement.

Again, Suzaku's plan would have worked in season 1 if Lelouch had not geass'ed Euphie and the majority of Japanese seemed pretty damn happy to think they were going to get freedom without too much bloodshed.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

...I think we have different definitions of 'working outside the system.'

Um. My point was more that he was willing to sacrifice a childhood friend's happiness for the sake of his goal. But yes, you can interpret it as you said. You can also interpret it as I think, which is that Suzaku's just having a hard time reconciling the fact that Lelouch 'doesn't remember' being Zero. xD

a;sdlkfj But you can't really blame him for that.

Euphie's plan, I think. Not Suzaku's. That whole idea was a little too 'ideal world' for me, but yes, you could say that. I still say you can't really blame Lelouch for its failure, though. He wanted it to work too.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But Lelouch is the direct cause of the plan failing. It might seem to "ideal world" for you, but it would have worked.


And yeah, I can blame Lelouch for that. He saw with Mao for the potential for him to lose control of his geass and I believe he had at least one conversation with CC regarding that possibility before he geass'ed Euphie. Lelouch is the one with the magic mind control power.

Are you talking about Lelouch there or Suzaku cause ummm Lelouch sacrificed Suzaku's happiness. Suzaku states several times in episode 05 he wants to continue to watch Lelouch but the whole reason he is there is he thinks Lelouch got his memories back. I don't think my interpretation is really pushing it that much.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.