Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Arguably, there are a lot of points you have there that could be completely flipped around. Suzaku is VERY different from what he was like in the first season, and while how much he's using Nunally is totally up for debate, he's definitely not the all-niave and lets-do-everything-the-nice-way guy he used to be.

Also, Lelouch... I don't necessarily agree with you there. Like with Death Note, the main character isn't necessarily evil or completely doomed to fail. Lelouch is extremely intelligent, but he comes across as niave to me. The only people he wants to kill are in the Royal Family. He's so incredibly driven by this goal that yes, he is willing to kill others and to destroy armies of people, but that doesn't mean he's out to spill as much blood as possible. He's simply doing what he believes is necessary.

And yes, his view on that is extremely warped by now because he's digging a huge hole under himself, but it wasn't like he was OUT to kill Euphie. We all know how that one went down, he opted to take the only route he thought he had --to use the advantage for his own good. I don't think his "you were probably my first love" line was faked, imho. If he had his choice, Euphie wouldn't have died and he would have willingly ditched the Black Knights to save Nunally, which to me, was a HUGE decision and made him very different from Yagami Light in Death Note, who simply lost all love for anyone. Right now, and at the end of Season 1, he was in so much trouble that he was spontaneously making decisions. He knew that no one would believe him if he said he didn't want to kill Euphie, so he didn't bother. That didn't mean he didn't want to say something though.

And honestly, I think Lelouch is much more believable than Suzaku (from Season 1, anyways.) We've all wanted vengence, we've all hated people, we've all got a dark side. That's just human nature. Suzaku didn't become interesting to me until he became more like Lelouch, because I don't think most people would say "I want to change this country from the inside" when that country took over the country that was originally there and lead to the degradation of your homeland.

I'm rambling, sorry. ^^; Just my thoughts.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

I agree with these sentiments.

Code Geass tends to be extremely gray in terms of right and wrong. LeLouch, despite both the question acts and questionable motivation for his actions, isn't inherently in the wrong in what he does. Britannia has been oppressing many peoples for a long while so it was inevitable that someone would rise against them. Lelouch may be using the people of Japan, but it isn't really wrong. While his goal is to create a world where Nunally can live in peace, that inherently extends to all the weak and oppressed people in the world, which means that his selfish actions are beneficial for others.

I hold no illusions that LeLouch is knight of justice and virtue, but he's not a bad or evil person at heart - he's a person that knows morally questionable things have to be done to really change the world that they live in. Certainly, he's killed people and used people, but that doesn't make him a bad person. Similarly, Suzaku is using Nunally. By attempting to draw out Lelouch, he used her. That isn't an inherently bad thing - he's doing what he needs to try and make the world a better place. He's not hurting her in the process. The problem is that even if Suzaku is a more moral person and character, he's ironically backing the antagonist and thus becomes an antagonist. All of his actions ultimately benefit the Britannian Empire and Charles and thus decrease the chance that the world will ultimately change. When compared to Lelouch, whose actions tend to be more questionable but affect the world in a better manner, it becomes clear why people side with Lelouch.

LeLouch really does care about the people around him. He never really wanted to hurt Euphie and desperately wanted to avoid using Geass on Suzaku, which speaks loads about how much he does value his real, human connections.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* Exactly. ^^ Awesome points!

Just to add on; right now, I think Suzaku and Lelouch are on the exact same table. Lelouch fights for revenge on his mother's part, and for a better world for Nunally. (This is supposed to become really apparent in the next episode... according to rumors. I honestly have no idea.) Suzaku WAS fighting for a better world in general, but now he's also clouded by narrow-minded revenge --for Euphie. The only difference is, Lelouch still has the one person he cares about the most, and in my opinion, unless he's got some other great love out there, Suzaku doesn't.

Heck, at some points in Season 1, it seemed like his friendship with Lulu was undefeatable. Even by ep. 26, Lelouch was reluctant to throw that away, but Suzaku was so ANGRY at the end of Season 1 that he didn't seem to care.

So there's another reason why people may side with Lulu there. :-/ Even at the end of Season 1, he was showing affection by trying to safe Nunally, and Suzaku was showing no affection at all, not even to someone he considered one of his best friends.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

But he was completely betrayed by that person that he thought was one of his best friends. In Suzaku's eyes, he just saw Euphie murdered by Lelouch, her plans to help Japan ruined. By Lelouch. So he's just lost someone he loved at the hands of the other person he loved along with all of his hopes being shattered. I think there's only so much a person can take and really don't see how people can blame him for being angry at Lelouch and hurt?

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Right. I'm not going to disagree about that one. But now Suzaku is adopting Lulu's techniques, with or without the Geass, and I don't think that makes him a better person because of it. :-/

Also, Lelouch's mother was murdered by someone in his family, and he's already pretty convinced it's his own FATHER. That's hardly better than being betrayed by a best friend with no blood relation.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Yeah. You can't completely think of Suzaku as a bad guy due to his actions at the end of Season 1 because his feeling are understandable. It's not fair to Euphie that she will be remembered for going crazy and having to be killed. But, sadly, the fact that Suzaku disregarded their friendship and handed Lelouch over to the king is disappointing because of the effect. It'd been one thing if LeLouch had died, but he was instead made to forget his precious sister and live a fake life in its stead which, to me, is far more depressing than death.

I can't hate him for giving up on their friendship but it's disappointing and makes his character less easy to relate to and more of a viallain.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* I do feel for Suzaku, I really do. What was done to him and Euphie was absolutely terrible. But at the same time, if you adopt his technique, if he stepped back from it all, you just have to wonder why he didn't give Lelouch 'another chance'. After all, Britannia basically took over Japan and Suzaku was willing to give Britannia a chance, despite everything it's done. I guess being in love changes everything. :(

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd argue that Suzaku hasn't given Britannia a chance. Since he was 10 years old and Japan lost its name he has been working slowly but surely from within the law to win Japan back its freedom. Suzaku is giving the law a chance not Britannia, it's not the same thing. Suzaku is not all "Yeah!!! I'm an honorary Britannian, we should all work to become Britannian!!" He just strongly believes after his one time stepping outside of the law, no matter how young he was or possibly accidental that it is important to always work within the norms.

Ummm there is nothing we've seen yet that makes it clear Charles was involved in Marianne's death. Heck, Lelouch thought Cornellia was involved in her death and it turns out she completely adored Marianne and was not involved at all. For all we know, CC did it!

I think Suzaku probably felt he was giving Lelouch another chance the whole time he suspected Lelouch was Zero.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, that's true, but we'd have to reeeeally squint to see that. Right now, even if Suzaku is telling himself that he's using Britannia to create world peace, he's DEEPLY immersed in Britannia's ranks. He can't deny his association with Britannia just like how Zero can't deny his role in Euphie's death. They're both kind of... stuck there.

I actually wasn't referring to Lelouch going through the ranks of the Royal Family (Cornelia, Clovis, etc.) but more to how his father refused to even CARE for him or Nunally after the death of their mother. That childhood scene where Lulu is one little cute, angry ball of fluff, lol.

Hmm... That's true about Suzaku giving Lulu another chance, but we have nothing but his word on how much he 'thought' Zero was Lulu before the helmet came off. I highly doubt he's known for a long time. Plus, Lulu gave Suzaku plenty of second chances as well. He saved him repeatedly when there was no clear advantage in it for him or the Black Knights. :-/ That whole second chance thing is still up for debate.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But Lelouch definitely knows Suzaku is the pilot of Lancelot starting in episode 17 and Lelouch is convinced that given time Suzaku will see how his plan is the only way to do things. Being his oldest friend, Lelouch wants Suzaku's approval and so keeps rescuing him when necessarily even geass'ing him to live.

I think Suzaku doesn't even start to suspect until post the island episode.

I don't think its squinting at all, I think Suzaku makes it quite clear he always sees himself as Japanese.

BTW I just want to note again, despite it being less dramatic, Suzaku's way would have worked if Lelouch had not geass'ed Euphie when he did. It's not that far fetched or unbelievable.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

I don't know. :-/ Suzaku hasn't claimed for a while that he's Japanese, and he's aiming to be top brass in the Britannia ranks at this point. That's bound to confuse people (and characters) because he's no longer fighting "for Japan", he's simply fighting "against the Black Knights".

About Lelouch geassing Euphie, I don't agree that it was intentional AT ALL. I thought the show made it very clear that he, just like everyone, has rambled about stupid things in front of people. He wouldn't have screamed for her or chased her if he meant it to happen. I've told plenty of friends jokingly that "I hate them" or that "they suck". It was the same deal for Lelouch. I know he wasn't all that happy about Euphie's plans to take away his glory, but he definitely didn't want her to die on the spot or to go down in history at some terrible person.

But yes, it may have worked. Very very slowly, but it may have worked. Sunrise doesn't tend to think about things working slowly though. ^^;

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Except you don't have magical mind powers that can force your friends to do anything you command them to do and know from seeing someone else lose control of said powers that it can happen. What Lelouch did is the equivalent of going out with some buddies drinking and then gets in a car and kills a family of 4 on his way home cause he was drunk. It's not a complete accident, but he's also not completely guilt free either since he shouldn't have gotten in the car.

And it's important to remember that Lelouch did go to meet Euphie with the stated purpose of geass'ing Euphie so that she would shoot him and thus discredit her in front of everyone and ruin her plan because he wanted to carry out his revenge. It wasn't until Euphie played the Nunnally card that Lelouch decided to let her plan go through.

No, Suzaku's plan WOULD HAVE WORKED IF LELOUCH HAD NOT GEASSED EUPHIE not slowly, not maybe would have worked, it was about to happen. I can really see why Suzaku would be pretty damn devastated to have had his best friend ruin this for no apparent reason other than for revenge.

And again, I think the fact Suzaku says in episode 05 specifically, Japan does not need Zero anymore, because he is going to become Knight of the One so he can claim Japan for himself should make it pretty clear he's still thinking about Japan. He's aiming to be top brass so he can free Japan. And the fact Suzaku specifically calls it "Japan" and not "Area 11" is very telling in and of itself. Considering Suzaku gets a hell of a lot less screen time than Lelouch and that is one of the longest speeches he's made in R2 I don't really see where the viewers confusion at least is coming from, even if it's up for debate regarding the other characters.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

The fact that Suzaku gets less screen time is, in my opinion, the exact reason why it IS up for debate. We're pretty sure on how Lelouch thinks by now, but not Suzaku, so you can't toss out certainty about anything he does because we simply don't have proof.

Like I said, we can't be certain whether Suzaku's plan would've work. I said slowly because it wasn't like the entire population of Japan was there. There's bound to be unhappy or unwilling people to join Euphie's clan, even if the people actually there were curious and were willing to give her a chance. Japan is well-populated, it will take a LONG time to get everyone on Euphie's side. Nothing in Geass is instantaneous. You're making speculations involving "what if's" that are not shown in the anime, so as reasonable as they are, they're still speculations. As are mine, of course, so I'm not saying that I'm 100% sure about Lelouch actions either.

Also, about the accident analogy, it doesn't necessarily mean that Lulu is evil for using the Geass. He didn't ASK for it. He got it through actually doing something good, namely saving C.C. when he didn't have a clue who she was or what she was doing. If he simply sat at home and didn't use it because it was against his morals, that would've made for a very stupid story. :-/ He's an ambitious character and by nature, he's going to use the power. I don't agree with his plan to Geass Euphie to begin with, but as you did point out, he WAS willing to let her go through with her plan at that point, and that makes all the difference when his power goes bonkers and wrecks havoc on her.

And about him geassing people to die in general, I still stick with my theory that Lelouch is, above all else, a prince. Like Cornelia and the Emperor and so many others in the Royal Family, he doesn't really understand the concept of having common people be as important as him, Nunally or his plans are. He has a mentality very similar to the Emperor's so it shouldn't be that surprising that he's so willing to send people into battle and to shed blood all for his own cause. His scene with Shirley and his shock that her father died is just another example of how much he doesn't understand the concept of common people/soldiers being important.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm wow, just wow. I have no words if you don't even want to give credence to what Suzaku actually says in the series because you want to interpret his actions under a specific light. o_O; I guess this explains to me finally why so many people seem to hate Suzaku.

No, we didn't get to see how long it would have taken for everyone in Japan to be free, however, Suzaku's plan looked like it probably would have worked with considerably less bloodshed and possibly just as fast as any plan of Lelouch's. It's not speculation that Lelouch completely ruined Euphie's attempt to put Suzaku's plan into action. It's not speculation that Lelouch went to meet Euphie with the plan to geass her in order to wreck said plan even if he later changed his mind. He was still willing to sacrifice a beloved and innocent sister to feed his desire for revenge. Perhaps you feel it would have made a stupid story for Lelouch never to have used his geass, but working within the story, Lelouch does have that choice and because he is ambitious and because he has always planned to seek revenge on Britannia (something he tells CC) he has made his choice.

I take umbrage at all the posts claiming Suzaku's plan was unrealistic, impossible, and pure fantasy. It wasn't and at one point in the story seemed like it had a chance to succeed.

I don't think Lelouch is evil, I just don't find him sympathetic at all and I don't agree with his methods at all. I don't feel bad for him and I admit, in R2 I take great pleasure in seeing Suzaku, Lolo, Nunally, your choice of characters disrupt his plans and give him some of the comeuppance he so richly deserves. I do think he is an extremely selfish character who has a hard time seeing anything past himself and what he wants and what he thinks other characters should want.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's because it's finals week and I haven't watched all the R2 episodes all the way through. -___-;; Hence why I'm not bringing up a lot of R2 moments because I haven't seen them yet. I was mainly referring to Season 1, you see my points above.

And stop getting offended and using "um". It's extremely rude in a civil debate to give that sort of attitude. I mean absolutely no offense to Suzaku or your views, I'm just stating my views, and it makes me extremely irritated to see that word continuously come up in this conversation.

Fine, that's just how you see Lelouch. I'm not going to disuade you from that, everyone views everyone differently. Suzaku is a honorable character, and he has strengths along with weaknesses, but that doesn't make him a perfect guy in any sense. You seem inclined to view Lelouch in a certain light so fine, I'm not going to change that either. But dont' get angry at others for seeing Suzaku under a certain light as well, seeing that both of them are imperfect in many different ways.

I never once said that Suzaku's plan was unrealistic or impossible. I did say that *I* would never take his path because it's very hard for me to NOT hold a grudge if someone turned my country into a territory without provocation. But that's what he is as a character, and I respect that. But you also have to respect that Lulu is inherently different from Suzaku and doesn't function at nearly the save wavelength. They had very different childhoods and very different experiences, and in Lulu's eyes, his mother's death and the betrayal of Britannia makes all his actions worth it.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But this discussion topic is specifically debating and discussing episode 06 of R2/R2 in general. The original poster was specifically posting about how the characters and the story has developed in R2. While I appreciate you wanting to share your opinion, it seems a bit unfair of you to ignore the character information and growth we've been given in R2 because you are rightly more involved in school right now.

I can't remember which respondent it was now, but there are several responses to this thread where Suzaku's plan was called unrealistic and the impression was given that it was naive and impossible. I think it is important to remember that within the world of Geass the plan was plausible and could have come to pass. I think that gets forgotten with the tragedy of Euphie and her murderous rampage.

I'm sorry if you feel I was being rude. It was not my intention.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

It actually makes him easier to relate to for me, because his reaction was along the lines of what I would probably have felt myself. Not that I can really gauge how I would feel having never been in that situation, but it certainly seems like something I could be capable of. I think he's been forced to bite his tongue and hold back his anger for so long that it was something to see him let himself feel.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

He's willing to kill innocent people whenever he feels like it. Even in ep 6, he could have easily Geassed those two fleeing Britannian doctors I think they were to just go away or leave him alone. But no, he instead chose to kill them for no reason that I saw. He clearly does not see other people as having the same level of worth as himself or Nunally. I don't think he'd hesitate to pull the trigger on one of the school characters if he thought he'd benefit from it.

Lelouch isn't as sociopathic as Light, but I think he's clearly following the same path. And I really can't see how anyone could think that Light was anything but self interested evil working to get what he wanted and addicted to his own power. And I like Light a lot and was really intrigued that the series protagonist was in all affects its villain, but still, I don't think we were ultimately supposed to think that what he was doing was right. Lelouch is essentially working as a terrorist and I just can't support or see terrorism as the right way to go. I'm glad Nunally agrees.

Suzaku has made mistakes, yes, and he's clearly changed and been affected by the things that have happened. But I still think that he's operating nowhere near the level of villainy that Lelouch is. I think he's in the most difficult position in the whole series. Suzaku has much more at stake if he makes a mistake than Lelouch does.

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Well, he did hesitate for Shirley. :-/ There are numerous places where Lelouch has extremely bad fights with his human side, mainly involving Suzaku and Shirley. And Euphie, of course.

Well, let's think about it this way. Lelouch was born a prince. He still has the mentality of the Royal Family in which he has no fear of ordering people into battle and shedding blood for his own purpose. That doesn't make him any worse than, say, the Emperor or Cornelia, except that he has the power of Geass. He's not use the concept of holding other people that he doesn't know anywhere close to people that he DOES know.

Suzaku was born a normal kid. He has a much better concept of how valuable every person is. He seemed to disagree with Zero's tactics, but I was kind of shocked that he didn't disagree with Cornelia or the Emperor's tactics. (Well, I suppose he's not in the position to...)

Again, Code Geass is not one-handed slaughter at the hands of Lelouch. Lelouch is losing men too. It's basically war. :-/ Also, we can't call Lelouch a terrorist without considering both sides. From the eyes of the Japanese, he is far from a terrorist. Japan didn't ASK to be taken over. Britannia is the biggest pushover ever, and that doesn't necessarily make them 'right' because they won over all the countries. We're getting into heavy debates about right and wrong of wars now so I'll stop, lol.

Light... Light was interesting. XD He still ended up being my favorite character, but we should probably leave the debates about Death Note to the DN forums.