Question about reactions to ep 6

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I seriously loved this episode and all of the great Lloyd and Suzaku moments in it. But I'm kinda scratching my head after reading some reactions to it that make no sense to me. I've not been very involved in Geass fandom and am rather shocked at some of the prevailing attitudes ^^;;;



I'm rather confused as to why everyone thinks Nunally has been brainwashed by Suzaku. After all, he's not the one who actually uses an evil brainwashing power to murder people. That's Lelouch. He's never used someone important to him as a political tool. Again, that's Lelouch. And if you want to argue that he used Lelouch, I think he had more than enough right to do so after Lelouch murdered Euphie and completely fucked over his country and plans for peace.

I'm glad to see Nunally taking some initiative and for them to develop her character more. I also am eagerly awaiting to see her reaction to learning Lelouch is Zero. I was glad she told him he was wrong. Because he is. And I do not think that, even as much as she loves her brother, she is going to take very kindly to the knowledge that he has been murdering people left and right and committing all sorts of atrocities all in her name. She'll likely be horrified and so far, no Britannian telling her has been a mercy. Lelouch has made this bed for himself and he seems awfully upset that now he has to lie in it. Poor baby. This is me feeling completely not sorry for him.

I like Lelouch as a character, but I hold no illusions that he's a nice person in the least. He puts selfish goals ahead of the plight of an entire nation of downtrodden people, nevermind lying to, manipulating, and using people who honestly care for him. Along with murdering family members and innocent people in cold blood and all of that. I don't think the ends ever justify the means, and while he had good intentions at some point - is he now going to fuck over Nunally for his own goals and ego or will he let her lead her own life - I think Lelouch's pretty far along on his trip to hell. I jiust don't understand why everything Suzaku does wrong is picked apart and held against him while Lelouch's various crimes, which are a much much much much longer list, are immediately forgiven. I understand that he's the main character and all, but I just can't give him that leeway and have to hold him to the same standards as every other character.

Comments

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

I'm not hugely active in Geass fandom either (read: not active at all in Geass fandom), but I can see where they're coming from. Suzaku's goals completely overlook the people immediately in front of him and he would sacrifice those close to him for the Greater Good (whatever the hell that is). It's kind of hard to sympathize with a character like that.

Also, his attitude is kind of like, "OH DON'T WORRY. THEY CONQUERED OUR YOUR COUNTRY PURELY OUT OF GREED, MADE ALL OF THE JAPANESE CITIZENS MORE OR LESS SLAVES, AND MURDER YOU ALL AT WILL. BUT IT'S OKAY! I WILL REFORM THEM AND WE CAN ALL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER! =DDD ♥" Which, as you can imagine, wouldn't be too popular either. Revenge is way easier to relate to.

It more or less amounts to this: Suzaku thinks with his head and Lelouch and EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD thinks with his heart. Thus, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD agrees with Lelouch and disagrees with Suzaku. =P Sucks to be him?

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Lawl, that's actually a great way to put it. XD The head vs. heart part. Unfortunately, I'm definitely a heart person. << >>;;

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

xD No, it's totally fine. I'm a heart person myself.

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

It's not even that Lelouch and everyone don't use their heads - it's just that Suzaku has such an abstract, unusual idea of how to make the world a better place that it's difficult to find someone that'd agree with it.. He was thinking with his peen for most of season 1 anyway.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Well, for their ideas of a 'better world,' they do. Kind of.

Lelouch's actions are pretty much focused on one thing: keeping Nunally safe. She is the closest thing to his heart, and so she's the only thing he really considers. In his 'better world,' Nunally is safe and happy and no one would ever try to use her. He saw that some people tried to use her once before, and so this goes against his whole world view and he attacks them, regardless of consequences or his chance of success.

Suzaku, on the other hand, strives for a world that's as good as possible for everyone (or at least, all the Japanese). Logically, it makes a whole lot more sense to do it his way. There's less bloodshed all around, it's a less dramatic revolution. But he has to put aside his feelings. He has to accept that if his close friends are killed in the name of his goal, he can't do anything about it and he has to put his feelings aside for his ideals.

Then again, PENISES > ALL

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

What makes it all ironic is that despite LeLouch's actions being self-centered, they ultimately have more of a potential to make the world a better place than Suzaku's. Don't get me wrong, Suzaku is clearly the more moral character and his method generally works better, but because he is backing a Monarchy, there's somewhat of a limit on what he can/can't change.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* For the bigger picture, slow changes work way better, historically. Revolutions seem to lead to a lot of general bloodshed, even after they're over. Lelouch's way will work, but Suzaku's way will too. Buuut... Suzaku's method doesn't make for very interesting anime. :(

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

-also shrug- True. I think that Suzaku's way would ultimately work but it's something that would require several large time skips to fully portray. It could be an interesting anime in its own right.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

a;dsfkj PLEASE NO. Those are the types I normally avoid, because all the characters just PROMISE to be epically annoying. Just... POLITICS. *dies*

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Actually, if Lelouch had not geass'ed Euphie when he did, what Suzaku was working for and his way of doing things would have worked Britannia was just about to give Japan a small self governing area thanks to Euphie's plan.

It must be particularly painful for Suzaku to have his best friend literally rip away what he has spent so much of his life working towards for no apparent reason (to Suzaku) than his own self-aggrandizement. Because think about it honestly, we as viewers know it was accidental, but really why would anyone have any reason to believe Lelouch if he said to them: "I have these mind powers and I was showing Euphie how cool they are but accidentally commanded her to kill all Japanese when I was goofing off, so then I had to kill her, my bad."

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm have you never heard of Martin Luther King Jr? He certainly thought with his heart and was working within the system to end discrimination based on previous slavery for his people.

Suzaku does not overlook the people in front of him, he definitely seems to care for all of them, was he not the one who tried desperately in the hoteljacking episode to rescue the hostages because he saw that Shirley, Milly and Nina were among those being held?

I happen to think with my heart but I rather strongly disagree with Lelouch, particularly since his reasons for revenge have nothing to do with Japan He's just using the Black Knights and their goals to fight against Britannia. Kirihara knew this in Season 1, Todou seems to recognize it as well. I'm not really sure why so many fans don't.

I don't really think Lelouch is all that believable, he's beyond wanting revenge, he has very strong sociopathic tendencies. I think a lot of people want revenge, but I worry about this world if so many people think it's OK if they feel wronged to start murdering indiscriminately. And while one could argue he was not out to murder Euphie per se, one still has to wonder why at that moment he lost power over his geass and why he picked to give that command. He also was rather happy to use her actions and her death to his own benefit.

Suzaku at least TRIES to be moral. As shown in R2 Episode 03, he at least gives his foes a chance to surrender, which is a lot better than Lelouch.

BTW FireBird ummm no, from as soon as we find out Raito has been gleefully using his death note it's pretty clear the boy is sociopathic and a little messed up in the head. I wouldn't call him evil necessarily but I would call him mentally disturbed. ^^;

[firebird-88.livejournal.com]

Actually I'm mainly just refuting the Light being evil part. ^^; The author herself said specifically that Light was NOT EVIL, just dishonorable. Which I think is a very interesting choice of words. ^^;

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Even if his reasons have nothing to do with Japan or the rest of the world, that doesn't mean that the results of his actions don't positively affect them. The thing is that the world of Code Geass is a world of war - one where death is ultimately inevitable. LeLouch recognizes this and understands that against a power like Britannia he may have to abandon his humanity to make change possible. Suzaku may be the more moral character but the results of his actions aren't going to have the same potential that Lelouch's will - they ultimately can't make the world a better place because they keep Britannia in power.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Is it really any more of a world of war than the world we currently live in?

I think Lelouch is picking to abandon his humanity because he never quite saw others as being his equal to start with. ^^;

[rubberandtea.livejournal.com]

Sure it is. The world situation can be viewed as far more unstable in the Code Geass world than in the current world. While there are acts of terrorism in our world, our world is one where things have been relatively stable. The Code Geass world is a place where there is constant unrest and military action. It does seem similar, but war is still a very real part of their world.

Lelouch may not be the most empathetic person, but he's a very real person. He cares about the people closest to him and is trying to do what he can to protect them. He's a human character.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm the same is true of our world, just not necessarily in the US. ^^;; There is nearly constantly conflict in places like the Middle East, Africa and in various former communist countries in Europe. We might not call it war, but do they necessarily call it that in Geass?

Lelouch might be human but he definitely has a lot stronger sociopathic tendencies.

[mikoto-chan13.livejournal.com]

Sorry to interrupt, but I don't think you're quite right. I agree that our world is also full of war (and I wouldn't leave out the US, considering they're actually leading war right now...), but the situation still seems different from the Code Geass world where one single megalomaniac country endeavors to conquer all the world (and seems pretty successful in it). I think that the atmosphere must feel pretty Nazi in Japan (and the whole world). My own homeland (former Czechoslovakia) was turned into a protectorate during World War II, so the situation of people here must have felt pretty similar, and I fairly doubt they would be comfortable with a Czech infiltrating Nazis, becoming honorable German and trying to change the Third Reich from inside (while helping them in their battles!). Actually I'd say that pretty much everyone would agree that the right thing to do would be destroying the Third Reich, no matter the means. This is the first time I've come with this idea, so I'm sorry it's not thought-out precisely, but I neither think that Euphie's idea would please them this much, because they would be STILL occupied, while the thing they want is freedom and most likely, let's face it, revenge (whether it's right or wrong).

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Yes, the US is currently at war and has been for several years now, but I assumed the original respondent was considering that as the only war currently taking place and disregarding all the other armed "conflicts" elsewhere in the world, when talking about our own world's relative stability. I'm sure if one lived in Chechyna, one would not feel the world was terribly stable.

I am not really sure the comparison with Nazi Germany is an apt one. We've not really seen the Britannians actively at war with either the EU or China and it doesn't seem like Britannia is trying to make a grab at world domination. Sadly, I think a better comparison would be the US involvement in the Middle East in our desire to control the oil fields there. There might be the occasional skirmishes with China and the EU but there is not outright war. (or else there would be no Chinese delegation in Area 11 right now) Though I admit now, I always thought Ougi was trying to draw a similar comparison as the one you made.

Again, it's very hard to speculate about this because the trajectory of the Nazis in Europe was very different than that of Britannians in Japan/their world. I want to say Czechoslovakia was swallowed in 1938 and by 1939 Nazi Germany was invading Poland and soon making a grab for the rest of the continent. Between 1939-1945 Germany was at constant war until it was defeated.

Britannia has been ruling Japan in relative "peace" for a good 7-8 years now (depending on season) so it's not really quite the same thing.

Within Geass, a lot of people in Japan seemed interested in Euphie's idea, including Ougi. He thought it had a chance and wanted to try to work it a possibility as well.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have heard of MLK. I wouldn't really say he was working within the system, though. He was putting outside pressure on the system to change, by forcing the lawmakers to recognize the protesters as a large enough force. Suzaku's approach is more... well, he goes right past the Japanese people to work with their oppressors. I guess I would liken him more to Brooker T. Washington than MLK--and Washington got a lot of shit for being a 'sellout.' Also, the wounds are maybe just a bit fresher for the Japanese in Geass than they were for Black Americans in the civil rights movement. The conquering of their nation was still in living memory, remember.

Suzaku does not overlook the people in front of him

I phrased that wrong. I meant that his goals mean more to him than the people he loves. If Nina, Shirley, or Milly were to betray Britannia, he would kill them too. With hesitation, maybe, but for his ultimate goal, he would do it. The best example I have of this is how he killed his own dad to bring peace through surrender.

I rather strongly disagree with Lelouch, particularly since his reasons for revenge have nothing to do with Japan

His heart isn't with Japan. He openly admits that the Black Knights are only his tool to protect Nunally. I'm not saying he's right, but it's easier to sympathize, I think. (That's just my opinion.)

I can tell you why he lost power over his Geass at exactly that moment, while he was making that statement. It's because it made for the most dramatic plot. He doesn't actually have control of when he... loses control. I honestly doubt he was happy, but that's a matter of interpretation, so.

I also never said that Lelouch was moral. Just that he cares a lot about something he wants to protect.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But MLK was working within the system, he was not supporting outright violent rebellion which is what Lelouch is advocating.

I don't think Suzaku's goals mean more to him than the people he cares about. We are shown repeatedly that even the new badass Suzaku is not just a killing machine and does give people a chance. His killing of his father was the one time Suzaku went outside the law and it forever haunts him as a reason to not go outside the law again.

That's great if you want to say he lost control and made that statement as a plot point to make for a "better story" but working within Geass itself, Lelouch still is the one who picks to give that command. He could have commanded Euphie to dance naked under the full moon, but he chose to command her to murder all Japanese.

But does that something necessarily want to be protected and shouldn't he get some input from them before he just declares he is doing it for their own good?

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Working outside of the system != supporting violent rebellion.

It's not just murder. I'm actually basing this statement on one of his more recent actions. Nunally definitely means a lot to Suzaku, yes? And Lelouch means a lot to Nunally. When he gave the phone to Lelouch with Nunally on the other line, the two choice I saw were that 1) Lelouch blows his cover and Suzaku kills him or 2) Lelouch doesn't blow his cover. Since Suzaku's assumption was that if 1 happened, then Lelouch had gotten his memory and that if 2 happened, then he didn't, then what's to say that Lelouch wouldn't have said something like, "Yes, this is Lelouch Lamperouge, but I don't have a sister and I have never had a sister"? Would this not have devastated Nunally--and was Suzaku not prepared for this to happen? (YES THIS PARAGRAPH IS ENTIRELY MY SPECULATION, BUT I WAS REALLY PISSED AT SUZAKU FOR DOING THAT. D:) But yeah, I think that he would have gladly sacrificed her happiness for his orders.

You're assuming he knew he lost control and that he told her to kill all the Japanese knowing that she would have no choice but obey. He was using that as a silly little "Yeah, well I could have..." type of thing more than an actual command.

The Japanese people rallied behind him pretty well for not wanting protection. xD Take the opposite side: Did that something actually want to surrender and shouldn't Suzaku have gotten some input from them before he decided to kill their rebellion 'for their own good'?

[rkold.livejournal.com]

Umm yeah usually working outside the system generally means something violent...

Actually, I'm not so sure Suzaku would have killed Lelouch right there and then. It's obvious from even before he put Nunnally on the phone that he strongly suspected Lelouch had gotten his memories back, what with his statement about having "lost a precious friend and an irreplaceable woman" as an opening and his statement to Lelouch about Zero no longer being necessary because he is going to save the Japanese. One could even interpret it as Suzaku giving Lelouch a chance to surrender/back down, but Lelouch continues to play innocent.

No, I'm assuming that he was goofing around and could have said anything but he picked that statement.

Again, Suzaku's plan would have worked in season 1 if Lelouch had not geass'ed Euphie and the majority of Japanese seemed pretty damn happy to think they were going to get freedom without too much bloodshed.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

...I think we have different definitions of 'working outside the system.'

Um. My point was more that he was willing to sacrifice a childhood friend's happiness for the sake of his goal. But yes, you can interpret it as you said. You can also interpret it as I think, which is that Suzaku's just having a hard time reconciling the fact that Lelouch 'doesn't remember' being Zero. xD

a;sdlkfj But you can't really blame him for that.

Euphie's plan, I think. Not Suzaku's. That whole idea was a little too 'ideal world' for me, but yes, you could say that. I still say you can't really blame Lelouch for its failure, though. He wanted it to work too.

[rkold.livejournal.com]

But Lelouch is the direct cause of the plan failing. It might seem to "ideal world" for you, but it would have worked.


And yeah, I can blame Lelouch for that. He saw with Mao for the potential for him to lose control of his geass and I believe he had at least one conversation with CC regarding that possibility before he geass'ed Euphie. Lelouch is the one with the magic mind control power.

Are you talking about Lelouch there or Suzaku cause ummm Lelouch sacrificed Suzaku's happiness. Suzaku states several times in episode 05 he wants to continue to watch Lelouch but the whole reason he is there is he thinks Lelouch got his memories back. I don't think my interpretation is really pushing it that much.

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.