Yet another kind of half-witted discussion from me.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

As if I haven't been posting enough of these things already. xD Buuut, I've seen a lot of discussion going on in threads and stuff, so... Here we go? Spoilers for Turn 19. Oh, and if you're not fond of capslock... I'm sorry about that?

Okay, so there's obviously a lot of guns courtesy of the fandom pointed at his head right now (LOL). All I can say is that I was really disappointed. THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANTED. I WANTED MORE ANGST AND YET GOOD HEARTEDNESS AND STUFF LIKE THE OUGI FROM R1. ;____________; I guess I'm happy that there's some VilettaxOugi going on, but... There are a lot of unhappy plotholes that need to be filled. Too many for my liking.

Even though I'm disappointed, I guess I can't really blame Ougi all that much. He's just an average guy, after all, and of course the fandom knows much more about Schneizel than anyone in the series, except for Kanon, pretty much. I mean, he's obviously been betrayed regarding the information he's been given. The fact that the Euphinator incident was an accident is something that not many people are aware of. And even Lelouch himself didn't admit that to Suzaku, making him seem like even more of a bad guy.

Lelouch also uses the BK as his pawns. I think he may have grown somewhat attached to them, but still, they're really just pawns. And besides- A betrayal was totally obvious, you have to admit. Half the fandom predicted it. If it wasn't Ougi betraying Zero, then it would have been one of the other Black Knights.

Edit: Sorry about my random spazzing, lol? But I really just wanted to know all thoughts regarding Ougi's betrayal. Any chance the Black Kngihts will end up feeling bad for what they've done and running straight back to Lulu? I have a feeling they will, seeing as they were stupid enough to get mindfucked by Schneizel(sp?). I also wanted to see other thoughts regarding Ougi's character development in R2 verses R1.

Comments

[zoidwhiteshadow.livejournal.com]

...I'm not sure what this discussion is about?...

This is my reflection on what I think you might be saying?...

I don't really see any of The Black Knights as backstabbers. I mean, look at it from their point of view. They killed all those geass kids (they thought they were just unarmed people, including women and children. Zero really doesn't give a crap about what's going on besides finding (as far as they know) the governor, and these people come in and tell them that he's really a prince, and he might have control over all of them?

I think I would react in the same was they did.

Just my two cents. (Also, I haven't read any of the other discussions, so if this has already been brought up, sorry. >> It's also kinda off topic? [What is on topic?])

[zoidwhiteshadow.livejournal.com]

Clarification of what I said...might be using geass on all of them (since they didn't really explain how it works, and that you can only use it once per person, etc).

Also told them that he ordered Euphie to kill all the Elevens...

Granted, it's biased/one sided information that they're getting, but they've been having suspicions for a while, and this just fueled it.

[zoidwhiteshadow.livejournal.com]

Also, I support VilettaxOugi, even if I don't even get how they're back together (are they? kinda?), if last I saw of them, Viletta was talking about how she'd never be with a dirty Eleven like him (or something like that. >>)?

And I doubt that Cornelia knows Guilford's dead. Who would have told her? Also, I need to have all my thoughts at one time instead of like this. >>

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And wasn't Ougi hit with Sayoko's ninja... Things or whatever? We never see his injuries, afterwards or anything. I also want to know what happened before he went back to BK headquarters and met up with Diethard and everything. There are a lot of plot holes, but I think those will be filled later on.

Sorry about the confusion. I just kind of spazzed on the keyboard- But I'll try to make the post sound more coherant.

[zoidwhiteshadow.livejournal.com]

That's what I want to know! How'd they go from falling down into a river to alright?! He didn't even look injured, or anything (if my memory serves me right?)

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Hm, but his wounds were probably covered...? He got hit in the chest area after all.

[defade.livejournal.com]

If the preview is any indication, they will feel a bit bad about it. Whether be it Zero's 'betrayal', or at them losing their last chance at regaining Japan. Because, let's just face it, without Zero, the Black Knights are nothing. They're going to last a while, that's for sure, but in the end, everything is going to go down in ruins without Zero.

I'm kinda disappointed at Ougi too. I mean, weren't you the guy who went "Hey, Zero disappeared all of a sudden from the battlefield. Maybe he's in some sort of trouble himself? Go help him, Kallen!" in S1? And now you're all "OH NOES ZERO IS A PRINCE AND WE WERE JUST HIS PAWNS". I'd certainly feel betrayed if I were in his shoes, but it just seems a bit...off that Ougi didn't even give Zero the benefit of the doubt when he seems to know Zero very well in S1(plus, it's a prince of the enemy empire that's feeding him this information - I find it rather funny that both Suzkau and Ougi accepted information from a suspicious person as fact so quickly). It's pretty ironic that both Suzaku and Ougi had left Lelouch partially due to a woman they've known for just a few months. Love is...kinda scary.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course! I mean, the BK is a good hearted bunch but they're pretty stupid, minus Diethard and that Laksharta (I can't even spell her name, lol). And Diethard is only in it for Zero, while Laksharta is kind of there to be a scientist whore and mess with machines. Like a counter Lloyd.

Yeah, I know, right? I miss the understanding-ness that was Ougi in Season 1. Still, I think it's also Schneizel's presence that factors into this...? I guess it's kind of hard to explain, but other than his manipulation skills he has this way of messing with people by just... Being there, you know? Except for Lloyd maybe. But Lloyd is... Lloyd.

I couldn't help but laugh at the love comment. xD Yeah, it is. o-o But this is Sunrise and CLAMP's love child, and I can't help but feel the love bit being very... Well, CLAMP-y. Even though it is Sunrise doing all the plot work. Also, it may just be some inconsistency with the animators. They need to close the series up in a few more episodes, after all, right? I think that's probably the real reason, lol.

[furato.livejournal.com]

Euphy, to Suzaku, IMO was not just a woman he happens to fall in love with. She was also the embodiment of what he's been telling himself to believe in since the age of 10--change from within. Whether or not it's really feasible (I don't believe SAR would hold in the long run), but Euphy to Suzaku was more than a woman--she was his beacon of hope. Between her and Lelouch who's always lying and trusts no one, it's easy to not side with Lelouch.

Villetta and Ougi, I want to know how they went from "I love you!" "Shut up Eleven!" to peaceful collaborator. Will we ever get that river fall flashback? Probably not. -_-

Still, I'm not surprised that Ougi betrays Lelouch now even when he stuck with Zero to the end in S1. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Lelouch in Turn 19 was acting the way he did during the Black Rebellion--giving orders that compromise the Black Knights' position for unclear purpose (finding Nunnally--viewers know how important it is for Lelouch, but BK don't). He was showing signs of turning his back on them for the second time. And when confronted, he went along with it like he did with Suzaku. Suzaku knows him well enough to know he's lying--the BK except for Kallen don't, because Lelouch never let them know him.

The thing is that I think Lelouch had lied too much for anyone to be able to trust him at all. Lying is both Lelouch's strentgh and weakness.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Hn- That's all true! *nods*

And, yeah- I was really disappointed! I wanted a fluffy river flashback. Nuuu, Sunrise, why so many plotholes? I think we will get tbe flashback eventually. It's kind of stupid to just randomly be like, "Oh! Here! And now this happens! shoves candy into face with no explanation*"

[knittedninja.livejournal.com]

I was a little surprised at how quickly Ougi and the Black Knights trusted the words of Schneizel and co. I mean, these people are supposed to be the embodiment of everything they're against, but they volunteer information about Zero and the BK are just like "Ya, ok, we totally believe you."

I mean, I understand that they had doubts about Zero anyway, and that what Schneizel told them hit home, but they still turned on him fairly quickly. I definitely get the impression that they'll regret that in some way next episode.

Also, Viletta x Ougi = total win.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Hn, yeah. -.- I mean, these guys are the ones imprisoning Japan- HELLO. But hey, the BK will regret for sure. (they lack brains and judgement without Zero)

VilettaxOugi = <3

[tomoyohime8.livejournal.com]

i agree (though i am a little late on the discussion boards, XD)

some people would think... "hey, isn't he trying to defeat us? maybe this schneizel character is lying to us so that the otbk would end up divided."

vilettaxougi=otpXD

[miribai.livejournal.com]

What upset me here was the complete and utter breakdown of trust. If I were trying to win back my homeland and failing miserably, and this guy in a mask swoops down out of no where and effects a turn around so great that not only do we have a chance of freeing my homeland but the rest of the world too, I would never question the guy. NEVER.

And what really strikes the bell of discord is Rolo. The OotBK only got half the information from a biased source and yet they turned. Rolo was clearly and explicitly told "Rolo, I fucking hate you I hope you die!" straight from the horses mouth and STILL, he had more loyalty toward Lelouch. It wasn't right or fair at all. Shame on you OotBK, shame.

Ohgi dissapointed me. But I'm unsure of why he turned so quickly. If it was out of fear for Villeta's safety, I'd forgive him. But if he was jumping on the bandwagon....shame on you Ohgi...shame.

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

Hnnn. I would question the guy a bit if he supposedly used them as pawns- And, hey, there were other moments were the BK began to doubt Zero. He disappeared from them for a long period of time without telling them why (suspicious), even though he returned. And also, he had really strange, selfish wants like finding Nunnally...? I don't think the BK really knew what all that was about.

I SAY IT WAS FOR VILETTA'S SAFETY. Like, seriously...? If she wasn't in the picture I'm sure things would have turned out differently.

[sora-no-kokoro.livejournal.com]

I know, Rolo was totally loyal at the end. Talk about depressing! Even my bf who's hated Rolo through the entire series felt bad for him by that point. And, yeah, Ougi's a huge dick. >:\

[furato.livejournal.com]

The OotBK only got half the information from a biased source and yet they turned.
As I said before, it's not hard to make the BK betray Zero because they have never fully trusted Zero. This is a byproduct of Lelouch hiding his identity. They already had issues with him when they went around the world securing alliances while Zero went and crush the Geass cult. Zero is unreliable--one time he looks like he'd bring you to victory and later he leaves you to get captured. Even Lelouch said himself that Zero is untrustworthy (back when he compared himself to Euphemia concerning SAR).

When Schneizel came, Toudou already got some info from Kinoshita that Asahina relayed right before his death. Schneizel's info may be suspicious, but it fill in the blanks. The way I understand it, the BK decide to take things in their own hands and not risk their lives and fates in Zero anymore. Yes he brought them to the gate of victory, but he also sabotaged them (in a way). It really looks plausible that Lelouch the Britannian prince is playing a sick and cruel game using them. It's different than being made a pawn in a fight to topple Britannia. At least you're a pawn with purpose that way.

[brokensocks.livejournal.com]

Ougi is like Hanatarou. Completely average and normal, has a forbidden crush on a noble, and fell into a plot hole. =/

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

LOL. The subliminal reason for my fondness of Ougi... xD

[sora-no-kokoro.livejournal.com]

I totally support Ougi x Viletta, but...not like this. At all. I think Ougi's a huge dick, especially since he's been around as long as he has. I could see someone in Toudou's group betraying Lulu, or someone else newer, but not freaking Ougi.

Also, "Lelouch also uses the BK as his pawns." I don't think so. I think he cares for the BK a lot more than his megalomania lets on. I think he simply said what he said to save them from his fate, as he did with Kallen. As much as he can be a Magnificent Bastard, I don't think he's truly heartless. Look at how he even treated Rolo at the end.

[soaker87.livejournal.com]

I know I'm in the vast minority of Code Geass fans in that Ougi was always one of my favorite characters, and still is after this point. I actually thought that the whole betrayal thing made sense, because the evidence that the Black Knights were presented with essentially the truth.

Ougi's goal from the beginning was to liberate Japan, and that's exactly what he tried to do in this episode. So I don't see it as out of character for him. I actually feel like he's grown a lot as a character, and if he was the same as he was in season one, then he probably would've been the idiot in this episode that people are making him out to be. In the beginning, he really wasn't a great leader, and was pretty much unconfident, but he always wanted to carry out Naoto's dreams. I think since he met Villetta, he's been forced to do more things for himself and basically become a stronger person. And in this episode, he did what he felt was best for Japan, which probably wouldn't be to follow a Britannian prince who has the ability to manipulate people's actions. It probably doesn't help that Zero, instead of denying what Schneizel told them, basically admitted to the Black Knights that he was using them.

Finally, I think Ougi still did regret what he did. Both he and Tamaki seemed really upset by the whole thing.

[fjazz13.livejournal.com]

I wonder why the BK are so shocked at hearing that they're just pawns, well aren't they? they were from the very beginning. Just because Zero didn't say it out loud before doesn't mean that they were more than that. They were willing to die in order to get what they wanted, which is their homeland's control.

And maybe Lulu wasn't honest from the beginning, but they knew that from the beginning too. The fact that he was hiding his identity meant something, and now they now they reason. You have to be very thick not to see a few things that were there, but didn't want to acknowledge before.

[furato.livejournal.com]

There is a difference between:
being a pawn to defeat Britannia (and liberate Japan along the way)
and
being a pawn for the lulz (some sick game a Britannian prince is playing)

The BK just decides it's time to take matters into their own hand and not leaving it to Zero anymore.